A 'what would YOU have done' scenario

[anon]

sorry - just looked at the end bit. Read it now!.



OK - another scenario - you have a 3 yr old colt, and a mature gelding. The gelding has been run with colts before, and knows how to handle them. The gelding and the colt have been grazed in adjoining fields for a month - and seem to have made friends

You turn them out together... and they start fighting - like ral fighting - running around, head-to-head attacking each other.


what do you do?

(the field is about 3 acres)

[mags]

Same thing, pile in there and do what can to seperate them preferable with a lunge whip in tow

[anon]

pile in there - with the horses at gallop - and space for them to move?

I don't think they'd have even noticed us...

[rosemaryhannah]

It IS a VERY extreme example - and the measures were necessarily extreme because nothing less was likely to have worked and I didn't have time to 'start soft'.

BUT I disagree that it has to be a VERY extreme example for minimal physical punishment to be necessary and acceptable. If a horse won't respond to 'normal' , non-physical training methods you have two choices.

Very extraordinary circumstances may call for extraordinary measures. I've never kept a stallion, and many who have will not have encountered one as nasty as the one you describe.

What I disagree with is your second statement. If you have a horse which is not repsonding to the methods you have used to date the options are not 'hit it' or 'keep doing the same thing'. There is always a third option which is to think of something else constructive to do.

If you are not in a state of emergency, with a life or death situation (and these are really very rare) it is possible to employ a huge battery of alternative methods ... it is possible to find non-violent (I won't say 'non-physical, as even squaring up to a horse is a physical act) solutions to problems.

[blueali]

In anons example, I have had this problem several times between 2 mares, and a similar thing with a riggy gelding and other horses. In my experience there is actually nothing you can do unless you can catch one and remove it. They have the space to move away from you although I have thrown things at them. If they are in a slightly more confined area just me running up shouting usually results in them going in different directions and it is possible for me to then keep them apart. But the point is again I would use whatever force necessary.

But I have to say that as long as one horse isn't cornered (and if it is I have a situation I can break up) they usually sort it out before too long. Of course this was not with a colt, I don't know if this would make a huge difference.

[Francis Burton]

Here's a quote which may be relevant:

What happens so many times.. is most people.. they lose.. they get the respect, say, ([or] they think they do) but they've lost the rapport. [Or] they get the rapport but they haven't got any respect. Raise your hands if you've seen that cartoon. The horses just love 'em to death. Next thing they know the horse finds a dead human that he's flushed out of his pasture, or in a trailer, or some other situation.

(I'll leave you to guess who said it.)

[janetgeorge]

anon said:

OK - another scenario - you have a 3 yr old colt, and a mature gelding. The gelding has been run with colts before, and knows how to handle them. The gelding and the colt have been grazed in adjoining fields for a month - and seem to have made friends

You turn them out together... and they start fighting - like ral fighting - running around, head-to-head attacking each other.
what do you do?

As long as it's just 'head to head' I'd observe closely (with lunge whip and water cannon handy!) and let them negotiate - ASSUMING they're around the same size and the mature gelding is not my favourite retired gentleman. This is fairly 'normal' behaviour and is much more likely to end in truce than tears.

Obviously if it starts getting into a kicking match, or the bites are drawing blood, it's time to act and there'd be quite a bit of running, shouting, whip waving to distract them in the hope of catching one (probably the gelding.) You could then use the lunge whip to drive the colt off while getting gelding out. But you'd need to be damn careful not to get caught in the middle - and obviously 2 or even 3 people would make it safer (one to get the gelding out - 2 to drive the colt away.)

[anon]

The mature gelding was my friends favourite long-time horse - and a 16hh cob

the colt was 15.1 nr TB.

They were galloping, fighting, screaming..... but not tail-to-tail kicking like mares do - they were rearing, boxing..... biting...

[janetgeorge]

anon said:

The mature gelding was my friends favourite long-time horse - and a 16hh cob

Ah - in that case you'd HAVE to break it up or risk losing a friend!

But normally, I'd say, that cob would have coped and colt would have given up - they'd probably end up mates.

I had a particularly obnoxious colt who reared and struck and did the lot. We gelded him and put him straight in (while he was still staggering) with a 16.2 retired HW hunter.

Colt was VERY subdued for about 5 weeks and THEN started trying to push the old gelding around, rearing, boxing etc. Murph tried to warn him - little ratbag would take no notice so Murph grabbed him on the neck - HARD! Little ratbag screamed - tried to back off - Murph wouldn't let go for several minutes. Ratbag has been a very different horse ever since - with Murph firmly in charge and he only has to put his ears back now!

[eileen]

I have read this thread and have taken the decision not to read anymore like it as i find it very upsetting, i dont like the way the colts and mares are referred to, not bothered really if anyone says im too soft, i would use the prevention method with the situations you have described Janet, wouldnt dream of having a gelding and a stallion in the same stable block, what would have happened if nobody had been around when he decided he wanted to kill the gelding? if you have been around stallions for 40 years then you would know they are pretty unpredictable so the safest thing would be to make sure there arent any opportunities for a stallion to terrorize a gelding in that manner. As i have said i wont read these threads anymore because apart from it being very upsetting i am also getting worked up at the number of so called IH people agreeing with your every word. I dont mean this in a bad way just being honest so hope nobody takes this in the wrong way as im a pacifist really!
eileen x

[wildrover]

Eileen .... I for one dont hang on anyones word.... and I will always make my own choice. I think you make a pertinent point here about what you would have done to prevent the situation in the first place. As per my ealier post asking the original poster what could she have done to prevent the situation.

That is what people should be reading and considering - that is the knowledge people need to avoid any such dangerous situations.... its a fair point to make that someone with 40 years experience would ensure as far as possible all precautions were taken. This was an emergency situation - the point here surely is not what to do if it happens but what to do to avoid it happening.

Incidentally Janet ..... what would you have done if the broom were not readily available?

[naria]

I expect you won't see this Eileen but a well brought up stallion shouldn't have any problem stabled in the same block as geldings. A stallion is a horse, not a wild animal! Also many stallions are riding & competition horses so have to be used to behaving politely around other horses & may well have to cope with temporary stabling at shows. Certainly if I was looking to breed from a mare I wouldn't contemplate using a stallion that had to be kept in solitary confinement

I'm sorry if you've been upset by this thread, I doubt anyone wanted to cause offence.

[eileen]

wildrover, totally agree with you :-) Naria, i have to say that i dont have anything at all to do with stallions so of course i cant give any valid opinion on their behaviour. what really turned my stomach was the vision of the poor gelding being so scared he messed himself and also what sort of a lasting impression this has left him with. I dont have the answers at all but i have to believe that where possible the safety of all the horses must be paramount and that particular scenario has just really upset me. eileen x

[janetgeorge]

eileen said:

i would use the prevention method with the situations you have described Janet, wouldnt dream of having a gelding and a stallion in the same stable block, what would have happened if nobody had been around when he decided he wanted to kill the gelding?

So would you have all stallions live totally isolated from other horses??

He only had the opportunity to try and kick the other horse's door in because I was leading him out - and one SHOULD be able to that with no problems at all. The two stallions I have now have a gelding (the same one!) between them and he is very friendly with both stallions.

The one stallion goes into a turnout yard beside any gelding on the place, or even a yearling filly with no trouble.

Incidentally Janet ..... what would you have done if the broom were not readily available?

Used anything else I could lay my hands on - or ripped off my coat to throw over his head.

what really turned my stomach was the vision of the poor gelding being so scared he messed himself and also what sort of a lasting impression this has left him with

Poor Gus - he WAS horribly frightened at the time. Luckily, being an Irish Draught, food is the most important thing in the world to him and he settled down quickly once he was removed to 'safety' and given a nice feed. He's now back in the same box, a stallion either side, and he LOVES his boyfriends. He talks to both of them through the wire mesh above the half-block walls, knickers to them when they go out - and come back, as they do to him.

If I COULD have predicted the behaviour, I would never have put him at risk - and I would never have forgiven myself if the worst had happened. But in one way it was a GOOD thing it DID happen when and how it did - there were worse scenarios where - if the stallion had got loose - he could have attacked many more horses. The wierd thing was that the MAIN reason I decided to buy that stallion was that he was Gus's half-brother!

[anon]

Most (all?) well brought up stallions can be stabled with other stallions and wih geldings - if they cant - then should they BE stallions? The Spanish riding school stable stallions together - school them together... and management system that isolates stallions from other horses sucks - and is potentially extremely dangerous - as those stallions then will not have the trainng to behave when it matters!.


The problem with My colt was his lack of training from birth - no-one ever TOUCHED him till he was 3 and a half years old.