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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 24, 2006 19:55:38 GMT 1
A stallion has the intelligence to realise that if the headcollar is on his head, it puts him at a disadvantage.If he gets hold of it first, HE has the advantage. Same goes for many bright youngsters. I'd never THOUGHT of that as an explanation? Never gave them credit for that much reasoning power! So why does Raj try to grab the broom when I'm mucking him out? Does he want to show me how to sweep PROPERLY! ;D
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Post by Hanchen on Dec 24, 2006 19:55:47 GMT 1
ah, thankyou! I strongly suspect that Goodie was gelded late (herd leader/hugely excited noises around mares/fought a stallion for his girl ect..) and he does this constantly so it may be why.
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Post by Gail&Merlin on Dec 24, 2006 20:05:43 GMT 1
well janet, i think i am the softest person i know around horses, i find it really hard to use any form of punishment, at times advice given to me has been far from IH methods and it has worked, when there is a dangerous situation, you have to deal with it and flippin fast, so well done for having the courage of your conviction and being so honest on here....
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Dec 24, 2006 20:20:37 GMT 1
Let him have the broom Janet, ------it might save you a job lol ;D MerryChristmas All , going to a party now, see you all tomorrow love SS3 xxx
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Post by mags on Dec 24, 2006 20:59:14 GMT 1
I think there is a impression to alot of people that IH is a soft option which I dont see it is. It's all about been more effective not soft. I dont carry a stick mostly when riding will could be class as soft but am tougher that alot of riders iv ridden with at at stables when theyve had the stick.
And am I right in thinking Kelly's response to a similar type of question was you do whatever you can to sort the situation.
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Post by mags on Dec 24, 2006 21:29:00 GMT 1
Actually dare i say it but it is no wonder ppl get that impression with IH/NH as some ppl who practice it take as a way to just be nice to there horse and do loose effectiveness.
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Dec 24, 2006 22:39:02 GMT 1
my origanal thought was 'run and find a safe thing to hind behind' then i thought harder and actully in that situation if it was me or the other horse being in danger i wouldn't leave the poor thing defensless. sorry to say the thing would have a good smack with what ever i happened to have in my hand asked to move away and if it didnt it would have another smack! im one for self preservation im not going to do anything that would possible get a big old stallion to start on me or get in the fireing line of its feet!
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emy
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by emy on Dec 24, 2006 23:22:35 GMT 1
what an intesting thread. I too would have done whatever it takes.At all costs,peoples safety must come above the horses(as much as I love the horses)and if you had not gained control,it could have been you too.Well done for quick thinking
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 24, 2006 23:43:02 GMT 1
As I've said before, I have NO problems with IH ideals - with luck and good management, they'll give you all you'll (hopefully) ever need to deal with the vast majority of horses.
What DOES concern me is that some people who come to this site (and others) looking for advice may not HAVE luck - or much experience with IH - and their chances of getting to grips with, say, a horse that barges over the top of them when the stable door is opened WITHOUT the use of a little 'corporal punishment' are pretty slim. Yet reading many of the replies to these sorts of problems, some could be made to feel they MUSTN'T do anything of the sort - or feel terribly guilty and 'failures' because they HAVE used those techniques.
There are many horses who do NOT need to be hit, ever, either because they have very nice temperaments and have been handled and trained properly from an early age, OR because someone has already done it (hard!) and the message has got through. I might add that they are more likely to be mares, IMO - it's quite rare for a colt NOT to need 'a severe talking to' at least once before he's gelded. I had one this year - out of 6 colts - who we gelded 3 weeks before he was weaned and at no stage did I have to even speak sternly to him. I really felt rather guilty when we did the nasty deed - because he just didn't deserve it.
But there are just as many more who will - at some stage - need to be convinced that while Mummy is a nice lady who brings food and attention, she can also bite if provoked. Better they learn it sooner rather than later - when the behaviour is relatively mild and the punishment can also be mild.
That stallion hadn't learned that people COULD make him do things! The couple who had owned him for 5 years were scared of him when he indulged in pretty 'normal' stallion behaviour - like grabbing the headcollar in teeth when they attempted to put it on. So if they needed to put a headcollar on him, they put a feed under his nose and buckled the headcollar up around his head while his teeth were otherwise engaged. Similarly, they didn't make him step back when they entered the stable - just walked in with a feed in front of them and let him eat from the bucket while they were taking it to the manger. He wouldn't even tie up!!
He was an extreme example of both 'a horse' and 'a situation' but far smaller examples of the breed, without the 'benefit' of testosterone, can be just as dangerous if they think people can be pushed around.[/quote][/i] I’ve taken your quote because I too am concerned. I’m concerned that people visiting this DG will see so many people agreeing with you and believe that physical punishment is acceptable. It isn’t, under normal circumstances, but you’ve put up a very extreme example here, in order to justify the comments you made on another thread. For the record, I have waded in and broke up a fight to the death by using violence too. It was necessary and I’m not proud of it but I won’t give a graphic description. Janet, please don’t feel that you’re being attacked. Questioning methods is what this forum is about, it’s a way forward for the horse don’t you agree?
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 25, 2006 0:46:14 GMT 1
I’ve taken your quote because I too am concerned. I’m concerned that people visiting this DG will see so many people agreeing with you and believe that physical punishment is acceptable. It isn’t, under normal circumstances, but you’ve put up a very extreme example here, in order to justify the comments you made on another thread. I really don't think there's much chance that anyone reading this thread would confuse or compare the situation outlined with their Neddy taking the pi** occasionally and use it as an excuse to beat poor Neddy to a pulp! It IS a VERY extreme example - and the measures were necessarily extreme because nothing less was likely to have worked and I didn't have time to 'start soft'. BUT I disagree that it has to be a VERY extreme example for minimal physical punishment to be necessary and acceptable. If a horse won't respond to 'normal' , non-physical training methods you have two choices. 1. Persist with the methods you're using and hope and pray he learns to respond before his behaviour escalates and he hurts you; or, 2. Administer PROPORTIONATE physical punishment for unacceptable behaviour to get his attention, make him realise that two can play his game, and buy you time to develop your 'normal' training without getting hurt in the process. The important things about using physical punishment are: 1. you have tried being firm but fair - and given it a GOOD try - and it hasn't worked. 2. you have considered all the possible reasons for your failure to get through. 3. you never administer physical punishment in temper. Physical punishment isn't a 'quick fix' but it can be an important tool that enables you to make progress with your training with some sorts of horses - particularly bolshy colts, or horses who have been allowed to do what they want for too long. And - don't worry - I'm not worried about being 'attacked' - at least verbally. Hell, I've been attacked by experts! ;D
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Post by wildrover on Dec 25, 2006 0:52:44 GMT 1
Not quite sure why we have to label it with 'a method'. In this case it was an emergency situation which the action taken solved the problem. It might not have done of course ... and there may have been other ways. Not likely to be able to repeat the scene so that we can compare 'best methods' of dealing with the situation.
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Post by mags on Dec 25, 2006 1:04:00 GMT 1
JG I feel your looking for a problem that isnt there. Most posters here have 1 or 2 horses that would be classed as pets. Many enjoy groundwork as much as riding which Im sure you will agree, if done correctly, is going to give you(or should do) a horse that isnt barging anyway. Few will have to deal with colts or the likes which take more careful handleing and a good square up will make most horses back off.
Correcting a horse without hitting doesnt mean letting it get any with something.
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anon
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by anon on Dec 26, 2006 10:56:50 GMT 1
oops - didnt read the whole thread first!
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Post by Native Ponies on Dec 26, 2006 12:41:09 GMT 1
Janet is soooo right, Nativeponies, I know you mean well, but drop the rope in a situation like that and the stallion is free to go foward through the door and into the stable----he really isn't going to give a damn if you chuck water over him! HE WANTS to get at his supposed adversary----the poor gelding! None of us wants or indeed needs ,to hit or mistreat in any way, our or anyone elses horses in most circumstances, but just occasionally, we have to take control at any cost. Why dont you actually read what was written in the first place? I wrote that I have actually been in a similar situation and throwing the water worked. I also wrote that its often a case of grabbing whats nearest and using that to fend off the aggressive horse, in another situation I grabbed a shovel and used that! Try reading what people have actually written before patronising them.
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Post by sueabbery on Dec 26, 2006 13:36:35 GMT 1
C'mon Janet - obviously what YOu did worked..... when are you going to let on? I believe the gleding didnt even get injured, or the stallion, or you.... Janet has already given her answer pos at the bottom of page 3 but don't quote me on that ;D
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