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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2010 12:13:53 GMT 1
Hi mandal, Yes, that's the one. Of course it's probably a good idea to be have concern for the effects of any work on the horse. You'd have to compare this to, say, trotting down the road for 5 minutes with a horse on the forehand. Having said that, (a)I don't think for a moment that what you see in the video was filmed all in one continuous go (b) when a horse is properly collected like this then there is much less concussion through the legs than trotting down the road on the forehand because the 'springs' of the hind legs are taking much more of the load and (c) the rider has a very supple seat so his weight will be having very little impact on the legs (some people might call this a 'floppy middle', however!). Yes I agree about trotting on roads in shoes (but then I would) and it's not something I think is good for the horse to excess. I can well see how the collection reduces concussion as well as the 'supple' balanced rider. I am however relieved this probably wasn't one long session. That was what prompted my thoughts on sustained extreme effort. I've seen videos of the work done on boards. Interesting point, that. Most sports injuries occur either as a result of prolonged low intensity efforts or 'impacts' with equipment or other players. High intensity effort usually isn't much of a problem unless it is done very suddenly with no preparation. A normal person, even if very well trained, will reach psychological exhaustion (where they give up the effort) well before physiological exhaustion (where something breaks). Low intensity training over long durations is the biggest cause of problems in rowers, for sure. The sorts of injuries weight lifters get tend to be from losing balance and getting twisted into awkward positions rather than muscle tears or joint wear problems just from doing the work. [mta: so that has some implications for horse training that involves going round and round at trot for ages at a time...] Very interesting about when most human sport injuries occur. Sort of, but it depends how you train the horse. Collection is a very complex phenomenon. Most Iberians or horses with similar conformation are at least half collected to start with, even when standing still, whereas warmbloods are generally at the other end of the scale having been bred more from conformations designed to run or pull and therefore much more on the forehand. I don't really understand the 'half collection' in Iberians I'm afraid. Is this their conformation rather than a 'half collection'? Collection (naturally) involves an intent/emotion doesn't it that triggers the collection. Surely a horse standing still and relaxed cannot be 'collected'? Or are Iberians bred to be wired to be more ready than other breeds you mentioned? I just don't see the effort in 'half collection' at rest being of any benefit to the horse. Have I misunderstood you here? I don't know anywhere near enough to be able to compare various training but to me, gradual, sensitive training in line with the horses condition, age and level of fitness is what's important. A good balanced rider is good too. lol Thankyou.
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Post by wabuska on Dec 14, 2010 12:14:31 GMT 1
You are funny Derek. I did pierce the forestry with cries of 'f- off deer' (they create these airs above the ground) until a lovely pair of elderly ladies hobbled into sight one day looking offended.
Mandal.. I struggle with the idea of relaxation in collection too.
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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2010 12:24:31 GMT 1
Mandal.. I struggle with the idea of relaxation in collection too. I was asking about Derek's particular comment there Kanga. I can see that collection requires engaging muscles to prepare the horse, the tension I sometimes see is more to do with the horses expression and when a horse seems to be struggling and not moving lightly and fluidly/easily. Muscles need to tense and others relax but that isn't what I see automatically as a 'tense' horse. Does that make sense. The word tense has more than one meaning for me. re broken horses, I have a feeling foot care and early shoeing with no barefoot time is a big factor in the breakdown of some horses at young ages.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 12:26:14 GMT 1
Ooh well, there you go, I've done terre a terre on many a racehorse, that's their favourite move at the start of the gallops lol!
Also used to get passage rather more often than I wanted on my friend's nutty arab! Other riders would look at me like I was a right plonker passaging all the way down the road ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 12:30:11 GMT 1
Reading Mandal's post there about relaxation in collection made me think about my arab prancing about in the field. I would say when he collects himself it usually results in lots of boing (technical term there!) as in upwards movement, more so than any of the non-arabs at my yard - presumably that isn't technically correct in dressage and that's why those of us who like our arabs to look like arabs were favouring the grey from the OP?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 12:36:46 GMT 1
Lol Kanga, good job my office door is shut, you made me laugh out loud!! F- off deer.... ;D ;D
And yes, it's normal for rapid deceleration to be accompanied by at least a shriek, if not a swear word. I'm impressed that your ankles ended up round his ears though, that shows a very deep seat. I, in comparison, normally end up with the horse's ears up my nose and my arms wrapped around his neck, muttering swear words into his mane... (Not quite, but you get the idea!)
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 12:40:43 GMT 1
Mandal, I think Derek's comment referred to the conformation of Iberians, being built for collection as they are. Lusitanos, for example, originate from bull fighting stock. If you can bring yourself to watch some bull fighting vids, ignore the bull and blood bit, and just look at the riding and the horse, it is amazing to watch. The agility is just phenomenal, you'd never get a WB doing that in a month of Sundays!
Someone is going to find a vid of a WB doing bullfighting moves now aren't they.....
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 14, 2010 12:42:05 GMT 1
collection and relaxation.
"half collected anyway"- I would say my Lipi stallion is one of those, yes he is upright but when out in the field he is half collected by conformation but his mind is fully collected re "doing his stallion job" even when he seems apparently relaxed.
I would like that to come across when riding. body ready for anything and mind engaged but calm. I supose a better way would be calm, confident and collected, as opposed to relaxed and collected.
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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2010 12:57:58 GMT 1
Thanks Jenny and Amanda. I see. Wonder if 'mind set' applys to Iberian mares too? Not stallion stuff lol, you know what I mean... ready for action at most times? I think the shorter backs makes a big difference as you say. Be pretty exhausting hauling/lifting a long back into 'half collection' all the time. Terre-a-terre racehorses do the move perfectly cos they choose to do it in that moment.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 13:03:09 GMT 1
I believe that Heather said a while ago that the Iberian pelvis is actually angled slightly differently to a "normal" horse, which is partly why they find it so easy to sit and collect?
They also have very high set necks, which makes it easier for them to lighten their forehands and shift the weight back to their haunches. (Gazdag used to like demonstrating this by doing vertical rears in perfect balance, complete with boxing front legs for maximum effect. Black Beauty style. Very impressive, or so he thought at the time. He has grown out of it, thank god!)
So it's a combination of factors, not just the short backs, although they do help!
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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2010 13:11:35 GMT 1
Oh that's all really interesting Jennyb thanks.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 14:13:10 GMT 1
Hi mandal,
it's all pretty much been covered already by the others...
You're right about collection being partly emotional too. It's a very complex state that's partly about the mechanics (balance), which is where Iberians are more or less there already and what makes them prone to rearing so easily but less naturally predisposed to extending their strides as much as e.g. a Thoroughbred. It's also about the emotion going on inside which produces the energy.
Collection is really a verb, not a noun, and it also definitely requires some effort on the part of the horse. So there won't be any increase in collection without a source of energy and that means there won't be any without some form of emotion either.
That leads on to a whole other debate about what 'sort' of emotion a given horse might be experiencing in a given moment but since we all perceive that through our own senses it's unlikely there's ever going to be much universal agreement about any given horse!
Just one of the many reasons why riding and training are 'art' and not science. Not even the greatest artists are admired by everyone and even the least 'popular' artist has the occasional fan...!
Short and long backs also have their pro's and con's. A long back is potentially weaker in the lumbar area which makes collection harder but a short back is potentially stiffer overall which affects all the gaits. The overall size of the horse matters too. The bigger the horse, the more work the muscle sling around the shoulders has to do to keep the body suspended. In the old days, the ideal dressage horse was reckoned to be about 15hh to 15:2hh. Nowadays, dressage horses are getting bigger and bigger (because they look more flashy and rhythmical due to the longer legs) and it's changing the nature of dressage itself, quite apart from all the toe-flicking, etc.
If you read the really old books, they almost always devote the first third or so to 'how to choose an appropriate horse for riding'.
Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 14:17:26 GMT 1
Haha, nice one, Kanga,
That reminds me of a time I was skiing in Switzerland with one of the other national (rowing) team coaches. He was having one of those off days when nothing would work and at one stage he yelled (at his skis) "Why are you b*stards being so unhelpful? Why won't you just turn when I want you to?".
Unfortunately, the two burly English snowboarders in front of him took it personally... lol!
Derek
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Post by wabuska on Dec 14, 2010 15:25:20 GMT 1
Love it. I can't do dressage, but I will say, I took the excess energy thrown at me this morning and we had variety in the pace, lots of lateral work and re-visited standing still, utterly still, attention on.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 19:29:16 GMT 1
we had variety in the pace, lots of lateral work and re-visited standing still, utterly still, attention on. But that *is* dressage! Dressage is just about schooling and training the horse.
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