Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 12, 2010 0:09:56 GMT 1
Like many things in horsemanship, hollowing is a very complicated phenomenon and far from just being about whether the head is high or low. In the videos that Spanisheyes posted, I'd say the bay is more 'hollow' than the grey actually, which prompted my earlier comments about long term soundness. Once again, though, I want to say I make statements like that very reluctantly because my intention is not to be critical of others' work. We have no way of knowing what the rider was intending at the moments in time - where she was coming from and where she was going - and I've been on the receiving end of that sort of uninformed criticism often enough myself to know better Even then, hollowness in itself isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing - grande passage, which I also mentioned earlier and is the version of passage always seen in competition, requires a totally 'hollow' posture and yet no-one ever complains that that will damage horses. We can't have it both ways...! Horses' backs are incredibly complicated and capable of taking all sorts of postures. There are some general principles that are recommended almost universally, such as beginning training by making sure that the neck can be lowered and extended, especially with horses that have a naturally high carriage, but really one needs to be able to position the head and neck up, down, left, right and any combination of those at will if the horse is properly and fully trained. Collection requires an elevated head and neck. That is simple physics and has been scientifically tested as well as written in all of the classic texts (though sometimes in such a convoluted way that it's difficult to see it! ;D). Ground covering ability, on the other hand, requires extension of the neck to bring the weight forward and set the horse up for maximum pushing. The reason for the mix of collected and extended work in dressage tests is to test the horse's ability to make these extreme changes in posture (and therefore balance). Any given horse will be capable of more or less elevation or extension (of the neck) at various stages of his education and development and too much focus on either one at the expense of the other is just as problematic, only in different ways. The main cause of problems like kissing spines is not hollowing in itself but rather the forceful elevation of the head and neck where the rider physically lifts the horse's neck rather than the horse being asked to do it himself. This is a critical point to understand. In the French approach to training, particularly that devised by Baucher, a critical skill is the ability to use the reins to elevate the neck without force - even a little bit! This is totally incompatible with any concept of riding that is based on driving the horse "onto the bit". At the end of the day, training horses is an art and not a science. There will always be differences in opinion about the 'best' way of doing things and that is quite healthy, imho. Riders who choose to elevate the neck relatively early must firstly develop the tact necessary to do it correctly and can learn a lot from considering the objections that 'the other side' put forward. Riders who choose to drive the horse onto the bit would likewise benefit from considering 'how' it could be possible that elevation of the neck could be a good thing and not cause the damage and problems they imagine it 'must'. As de Milet said around 2500 years ago, "right and wrong are not facets of nature but only of rules". More recenty, Shakespear said "There is nothing good nor bad, but thinking makes it so...". Perhaps they knew a thing or two about horses...? Best wishes, Derek
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Post by wabuska on Dec 12, 2010 9:18:41 GMT 1
I wonder if many of us, and possibly many of us not caught up in the excitement, rider led technicalities and the pressure of competing in dressage, feel and see the micro-management, the forcing into shape and lack of natural movement and enjoyment more keenly? Do we have DGers competing at a high level or medium level who could row in and put us straight as I for one am a hobby rider with a amateur eye that I know can fool me. Have enjoyed all the discussion. Marvelous. ;D
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Post by jennyb on Dec 12, 2010 9:47:36 GMT 1
Fair point re the neck Derek, I have to admit to looking at the legs during the half steps! You only take so much in during one viewing....! I would agree that a low neck is not making the piaffe easy and won't produce a good one. So tell me about training the piaffe without half steps then. My take on using half steps was that it gives a young horse the idea of piaffe steps without demanding that they do a full piaffe when they are not yet strong enough to sit well and hold the necessary weight over the haunches. It takes *years* to do that! I know trainers such as Anja Beran use the same thinking, to introduce the idea of piaffe quite early on in the horse's training, with the idea that it takes so long to perfect, the horse can start to learn the idea and very little chunks of it, very early on. Many roads to Rome and all that.... I have often thought that Gazdag has shown a natural talent for passage, but not piaffe. He will also be good at capriole and courbette, should I so choose to teach them, as he likes to ping off his hindquarters with impressive power and speed rather than to actually sit on them and collect for long periods of time, lol! He has only chosen to show me levade once (and it was actually perfect, I was stunned!), but likes to show off his capacity for getting airbourne rather more regularly than I would like.... So I think there is a consideration when choosing how to teach piaffe on the following: - how early you decide to start work on it - the horse's natural talent for the work - the trainer's ability There are many methods available, but would you always pick one method? How have you approached teaching your horses to piaffe? I am mindful that this is the first time I am teaching a novice horse to piaffe, rather than riding it on an established horse, so I am being guided by my trainers a LOT, lol! I think whilst half steps might take longer, I am less likely to mess up the horse than if I try (and fail!) to ask for a full piaffe. And interestingly, Francois is having me shorten the trot steps a lot. Last time he was here, I showed off what I thought was a very, very slow trot, but that was not good enough, I have been sent home with instructions to trot even slower, lol! So I think he is perhaps thinking of preparing the horse this way, by asking them to trot as slow as possible, yes, definitely with a raised neck, to strengthen the horse and develop his ability to hold himself. Luckily Gazdag understands all this work very well and finds it relatively easy. The riding in Portugal showed me that even in established horses, some find it a LOT easier than others. There was one big grey horse in particular who was just a piaffe machine, he could sit there and do it all day, very rhythmical and balanced. He also had a huge flowing white mane, so I have to confess to feeling like a complete girl and thinking that it was like riding a fairytale horse, lol!!
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Post by jennyb on Dec 12, 2010 9:57:49 GMT 1
Kanga, I'm not competing at high or medium level, but I can kind of see where you are coming from. To me, the differences in appearance are due to two things - the differences in training methods and the differences in the level of work. The grey horse is having *nothing* asked of it. He is just trotting and cantering around, pretty much as he sees fit, which is nice in a way as it gives us an idea of how he likes to use himself. The bay is in a much, much more demanding session, and is learning some things which are evidently new to him. This means he is having to concentrate and try hard, and sometimes horses can look like they are "frowning" (for want of a better word!) when they are really thinking about what they are doing and trying hard. Gazdag is a perfect example in my sig. The far left pic was during a break in a lesson when Francois was explaining something to us, so Gazdag chose to have a look around and saw something interesting. The far right pic was later in the same session I think, when I was really asking him to lengthen his trot as much as he could, and so his ears are flicked back to listen to me, and I can see from his face (knowing my horse as I do!) that he is really concentrating hard and trying his best to do what he is asked to do. In time, he could do this and still look relaxed and at ease, when he is better at lengthening his paces, but I think in introducing all new work, there is a necessary period where the horse has to really think about what he is doing. There is no doubt in my mind that the bay was having to concentrate very hard, whereas the grey was doing nothing demanding at all, he can trot and canter around like that in his sleep, so he was pricking his ears and having a good look around at the same time, his attention was not on his work (or his rider, IMHO!).
Interestingly, in the second pic in my sig, Gazdag is putting a lot of thought and effort into escaping from the scary monster on the arena fence (the jumper, which you can see Catrin kindly moving out of the way for me!). He wasn't actually supposed to be cantering at that point.....
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 12, 2010 11:09:01 GMT 1
Hi jenny, Don't kill me for this, but from what you said in your post you're doing it already The thing is to have a very clear idea about what piaffe is and the sorts of things we can do as riders that will make doing it easier or harder for any given horse. Piaffe is NOT just trotting in place. It looks like it, for sure, but it also involves the shortening of the base of support that results from tipping of the pelvis (the lowering of BOTH haunches simultaneously in other words) as well as the hind legs stepping further forward under the mass. Different horses will do each of those in different amounts depending on their conformation, suppleness, strength and co-ordination. The key question is how to achieve the tipping of the pelvis most easily and the answer is by elevating the neck without causing hollowing. The clearest explanation I can suggest of how to do that is Baucher's 2nd manner which has just been published for the first time ever in English! You can find a copy here: www.amazon.com/Methodical-Dressage-Saddle-Horse-Dressage-Outdoor/dp/0933316178/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291398412&sr=8-1This is the key to why Baucher was able to train horses in such a short space of time. Now, we could also get into all sorts of discussions about whether Baucher's horses lacked impulsion, etc, but it's not a fair criticism imho because the only critics who ever said that adhered to a system of riding that depends on driving the horse onto the bit... There's a quote from a French master that goes something along the lines of "On the bit is a method of riding devised for people with insufficient tact to elevate the poll". Anyway, from what you said above, it sounds like Francois wants you to collect the trot by elevation (as opposed to merely shortening, which won't do much about the pelvis) but isn't necessarily saying it in quite those words. One of the potential pitfalls in developing piaffe is that the horse might start to use it as an evasion (because piaffe is easier than very collected trot, for example) so that's a very elegant way of dealing with that problem without letting it ever occur in the first place while also giving the rider the opportunity to learn a lot about fine control, elevation and balance - so "chapeau" (hats off) to Francois, as they say in French Something I might suggest to assist in getting the trot even more collected would be to do collect the trot in shoulder-in on each side before doing it straight. It's easier for the horse to lower one haunch at a time than both together. Also bear in mind that any backwards pressure on the face causes the haunches to disengage - the exact opposite of what you want to occur. Yes and no. There is only really one method, which is to elevate the neck and change the balance in order to provoke the tipping under of the pelvis - but there are many ways to go about achieving that and the choice depends on what difficulties I experience when attempting to elevate the neck, etc. I've worked with one horse belonging to a client who I just ask to elevate and he started to piaffe. Easy peasy. The challenge there is to make the distinction between piaffe and collected trot. I also have one of my own horses who was so hollow and disconnected in the beginning you wouldn't believe it, so I've spent literally years training her to just walk, trot and canter in a good posture. If I knew a couple of years ago what I know know I'd probably have gotten there a lot sooner, but such is life! ;D As you know I'll be studying with Philipe Karl from next month and he has his own favourite way of introducing piaffe too - so I'll be doing it his way and seeing what else I can learn from that. In the end, though, it still comes down to achieving the lowering of the haunches via elevation of the neck while maintaining a desire to "go". I don't buy the argument that half steps are a "less dangerous" way of teaching piaffe (assuming that "half-steps" means working with the head low as opposed to what you are doing anyway with elevation). I think it's the hardest way of teaching piaffe, to be honest, but it's intended as a defence against causing hollowing due to working with too much tension in the reins. Personally, I think the least dangerous road to piaffe (and other High School work) is to learn how to ride with (true ) lightness in the reins in the first place - the method proposed by Baucher, Kerbrech, Beudant, Bacharach, Bouzar and a few other trainers whom you know - which is why I almost always start riders with work on a single rein. Best wishes, Derek
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Post by mrsmills on Dec 12, 2010 11:24:35 GMT 1
Blimey, it's complicated this riding thing, isn't it!
Really enjoying this thread, and learning loads.
Still prefer the grey, although I have no idea which is going best.
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Post by mandal on Dec 12, 2010 12:03:47 GMT 1
Blimey, it's complicated this riding thing, isn't it! Really enjoying this thread, and learning loads. Still prefer the grey, although I have no idea which is going best. Yes it's a really interesting an imformative thread. Ditto.
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Post by wabuska on Dec 12, 2010 13:25:58 GMT 1
This are posts to paste.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 12, 2010 13:32:31 GMT 1
Oooohhh!! A difference in translation, again. I didn't understand half steps to mean necessarily lowering the neck at the same time. I work with Andrew Day once a month, we were talking about developing the half steps last time but he does not want a low poll at the same time. One thing Andrew does understand is how the horse needs to use his body, so definitely poll up in the half steps. I also hear some other people talking of training the half steps with their horses, and they are extremely correct in their approach too and would not do this with a low poll. So perhaps it's one of those terms which has multiple interpretations?! My meaning when I use the phrase is getting a few piaffe steps, no matter if there is a bit of forward motion, just as long as the horse gets the idea of the piaffe for a couple of steps, then reward and allow forward. I don't tend to call that piaffe, because it's not a proper piaffe, lol! It could show faults such as incorrect diagonalisation, insufficient lowering of the haunches, and in Gazdag's case, lots of wiggling around because it's all quite exciting learning something new you know, lol! But it's just giving the horse the idea of a few steps, just a few times in a session because it's such hard work, and not even repeating it every single session. Just a very baby idea of piaffe which can be built upon to get a more correct piaffe in time. Chapeau indeed to Francois, he has taught me such a lot and I wouldn't have dared even entertain the idea of buying such a sharp young horse without knowing that I could get guidance from Uncle Francois! It was a scary prospect at the time but I'm so glad I took the plunge, lol! Shoulder in in the collected trot sounds like a brilliant idea, thanks for that, I will give that a go. Andrew had a good suggestion about asking for the half steps (in our interpretation, lol!) from a school walk and not from a trot, so that there is a very clear difference to the horse. Might help to avoid the problem of the horse taking piaffe rather than collected trot, although Gazdag hasn't quite figured out the piaffe well enough to think about using it as an evasion yet, phew! We've literally only just started this work in the past month or two. Andrew says for most horses, he works the piaffe from a school walk and the passage from a collected trot, to avoid confusion for the horse, although he does acknowledge that sometimes some horses prefer a different approach. It took Gazdag a while to figure out that it was possible to do trot steps from a school walk, he does the school walk very well but so far I have just asked for bigger walk steps following on from it, so at first he said "No, we need to speed up the walk first, Mummy!" But he's a smart boy so he catches on quickly to a new approach. It is interesting that within the one "method" of lowered haunches and a high poll (which I would agree is essential for any piaffe work) there are so many different approaches to developing the work. Good discussion!
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Post by spanisheyes on Dec 12, 2010 16:02:11 GMT 1
I forgot to add the link to the grey working western in my last post - I got sidetracked reading all of the interesting responses lol www.miragev.com/gallery.aspLike I said you have to fast forward through his paddock posing to get to his western work. He is a lot darker and therefore I presume younger in his western work. Forgive me if Im wrong but I though western required a high degree of collection and presumably he was doing western at quite an advanced level to be a working cow horse? Maybe someone else hit the nail on the head when they posed the question about switching riders? Keep the discussion coming please BTW although I think the black arab that someone posted a video of is a lovely horse I too do not like his hindleg action. I think it is admirable that he is working at a high level but I still feel that something is wrong with the picture. Although, I prefer him to the bay
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Post by spanisheyes on Dec 12, 2010 16:18:56 GMT 1
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Derek Clark
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Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 12, 2010 17:11:21 GMT 1
Hi Jenny,
Not so much a difference in translation as a difference in interpretations. Because you and I are both francophiles, when we talk of shortening strides we probably both assume that elevation is involved.
The issue with 'half steps' is when they are attempted by a rider (or trainer) who is more German oriented, in which case the mere idea of elevating the head at all is considered 'evil'. In that case, the only option left available to them to shorten the strides is to use opposition (or 'passive resisting' hands, as they are more politely called). This puts the horse on the forehand and makes collection appear difficult. The belief in those circles is that it's the tipping of the pelvis and increased engagement of the hind legs that causes the elevation of the neck. Personally (and I'm not alone in this) I believe it's exactly the other way round for a variety of reasons.
So, it's not so much that half steps involve lowering of the neck, rather that elevating the neck makes them easy, provided the horse is capable of engaging and flexing the haunches and hind legs instead of keeping them braced and hollowing instead. What takes the time is developing sufficient suppleness in the haunches and hind legs - as you are currently experiencing.
Beginning piaffe from the school walk is also an elegant way to do it. In fact, some people actually consider piaffe to be part of 'walk' rather than 'trot'. Again, for school walk to be possible, the haunches have to be suppled sufficiently, so it solves the problem just described.
The wiggling around of the haunches that you describe is quite common too and is the horse attempting to find a way to resolve the question (how are you going to balance with less weight on the forehand?) without the answer involving "by tipping my pelvis and bending my leg joints". It shows that you are working on the edge of what he can cope with which is where you need to be if you want to develop things further. If it becomes a habit, though, then that can be problematic, so you have to keep him absolutely straight by use of the aids. Now, many people would aim to use their legs to contain the haunches, but the downside of that is that it puts weight on the forehand again. Baucher's method involves using indirect reins only to replace the shoulders in line with the haunches because that tends to lighten the forehand and load the haunches more.
To really get the piaffe without the wiggling you need to have the spine absolutely straight. This is not just a matter of having the feet moving straight but also having the horse's spine perfectly straight under you at all times. Any movement of the rider's seat or legs that is over and above what the horse's movement causes disturbs the straightness of the spine, so that is another good reason to minimise their use.
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by jennyb on Dec 12, 2010 18:24:59 GMT 1
Ah yes, I hadn't even thought of the German interpretation of half steps. I am so used to thinking of things in the French way! Gazdag isn't one for evading tbh, he likes to please and so it's just a matter of practising until he understands and then he'll be fine. Trouble is, this work can only be practised for such a short period at a time, so it will take a few sessions I think! But his retention is phenomenal, he doesn't forget a thing, in fact I am convinced that he thinks about his schooling sessions in the field because sometimes he might struggle with a new thing, and next time you try he will act like he knows all about it, like he has been revising! So it's just a question of a little practice and a little patience and waiting for him to be strong, and I'm sure he'll have a great piaffe if I get the training right.
In the last lesson with Andrew, we attempted walk pirouettes as an exercise in their own right for the first time, which of course Gazdag said was easy peasy, thanks to all the prep exercises we have done with Francois. So then Andrew showed us how to start the training for canter pirouettes (which again, will take a long time to strengthen him for), and Gazdag showed off by doing travers in collected canter on a 12m circle on his first attempt. Precocious horse!!! I'm sure he has a secret DVD player stashed in his field and trains himself by watching DVDs when no-one is looking....
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Post by jennyb on Dec 12, 2010 18:31:14 GMT 1
Yes, the Akhal Teke shows a lovely piaffe. What a nice horse. Head and neck free, and you can see the tilting of the pelvis and the flexion in the hind leg joints that Derek was talking about.
The grey - not nice! Doesn't look quite sound tbh, looks a little restricted in front, and is a prime example of what Derek is saying about elevating the poll - I feel if the rider just lifted his neck a touch, it would free the shoulders more, allow more expression in front and more sit behind. She seems quite concerned to have him "round"....
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 12, 2010 19:39:20 GMT 1
Yup, pretty much agree with Jenny on those. There's another bit of film somewhere of Absent doing piaffe and passage where a plastic bag (or piece of newspaper?) blows in and wraps around his foreleg. He doesn't bat an eyelid. Ah, found it. There's a longer version somewhere but this is still some great work: www.youtube.com/watch?v=omqhqiFx7i4Derek
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