Which of these horses is working correctly?

[Johanna&Yorkie:)]

I am Definatley NOT and expert,,,so dont think anything of me if my comment is totally wrong.

But i Prefer the second horse as his movement seems so flowing and natural, he doesn't look like he is being made to do anything, but it is just in his nature to move so gracefully.

"In my oppinion" the first horse looks uncomfortable and everything seems forced.

Wish my horse was that fit and forward going though!

[maislow]

for me both are working effectively. It's hard to compare them as they are different breeds & put together differently & therefore will work differently

[laurac]

maislow - i thought that too but apparently the first bay horse is an arab stallion too !

[Deleted]

My thoughts exactly laurac - that third arab is stunning!

I especially love the fact that he spent the whole test with his tail in the air

MTA: tbh for me the whole point of arabs is that they are different, which I think is part of the reason the first one doesn't appeal to me at all - because there's no character showing, it just looks like every other dressage horse out there.

[Derek Clark]

It's hard to compare them as they are different breeds & put together differently & therefore will work differently

maislow - i thought that too but apparently the first bay horse is an arab stallion too !

That's sort of my point, in a way. The training of the bay horse has resulted in a horse that looks like a standard issue 'dressage' warmblood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it gets high marks in competition, but I would be very surprised if it can do very collected work easily and, though I hate to say, if it stays sound later in life.

Lisap said:

To my eye it always looks un pleasing, and it's really difficult to get real connection from the back to the front. However, *nudges Derek mischieviously*, the horse will 'feel' very light and fluffy, but it isn't actually working properly from behind, so it is really conning the rider a bit.

Not sure why you are nudging me, actually. I totally agree. One test that would reveal whether the horse was truly light or not would be to lengthen the gait or perform any upward transition by the hand alone. If the horse is falsely light, it won't work - simple as that! ;D

the *rider* (in the vid derek posted) is just to die for as far as his posture and expertise is concerned. What he would have been able to do with one of today's multi-million pound horses would have been something to watch....

I'd bet my house that he would have produced another horse that looked pretty much the same as the one you see in the vid because that's what he thought a well trained horse was all about...

Anyone who has any of Philippe Karl's DVDs can see glimpses of a horse (Odin) that he spent 15 years training and developing. He looks remarkably similar, especially considering that he really is a totally different breed!

Best wishes,

Derek

[lisap]

Lisap, the horse is now competing grand prix level apparently so maybe the judges havent spotted the hoovering hind end!

And we can see an awful lot of horses that are at Grand Prix level that are on the forehand in the Piaffe as well....

Can I have a horse with a hoovering hind end please, it sounds a very useful thing to have, like a sort of equine paddock sweeper, perhaps? ;D

[donnalex]

If you go back to where dressage came from maybe your original answer could be a little different? Dressage is supposed to be the training of a horse to be comfortable and obedient to ride in every situation - Am I right with that?
Which horse would be the easiest on the rider, give them the most comfortable ride on a days hunting?
Which horse would be the best one to take out on an endurance ride?
Which one do you think would give you back ache, arm ache and stitch?
Which one would leave you the least tired after a full day in the saddle?
Most importantly, which one would probably suffer the least muscle fatigue/tiredness/stiffness the day after the endurance ride?

[jennyb]

Derek - I completely agree that there is a lot wrong with modern dressage, and have been on the receiving end of some rather dodgy judging myself. However, my point was that it's not all bad, there are a lot of good judges around who DO uphold the classical principles. There are also riders who understand good riding and training, and who like and practice the kind of training that we do, in the French style. Yes, there is a particular "shape" which is encouraged, but this is based upon what we currently know and understand to keep horses soundest, the longest. Of course, this does not include horses behind the vertical etc and it's sad that it is not penalised more strongly in competition, but the basic aim of teaching the horse to carry himself in self carriage, which demands engaged quarters and a rounded frame with the horse yielding to the bit (in very basic terms!), is proven by the likes of the SRS riding in this way and keeping their horses sound well into their twenties. I believe that Laura Bechtolscheimer is showing some good work with Alf now, people were very complimentary about his piaffe recently, although personally I still don't like her hands!!

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you think the strung out and hollow grey horse is more likely to remain sound! There is a happy medium between the two IMHO, the bay is a little too short and overbent at times, but the grey is nowhere near self carriage, I would fall off my chair in shock if he could piaffe well with his current way of going. For me, horses like that are in real danger of things like kissing spine, unless they learn to recruit the ligamentous support system by stretching FDO and get the topline stretched whilst the core muscles strengthen.

You say that the bay couldn't collect - he is doing half steps on a relatively loose rein - how much more collected do you want?! Of course, he could show an exemplary piaffe and levade to demonstrate better collection, but he looks to be learning half steps and so is not established yet. Gazdag has started a tiny bit of work on half steps, and at the beginning you absolutely can't do this work on a loose rein (well, I can't anyway, lol!), you of course should not hold the horse with the rein, but it is necessary to have the contact ready to say "No, don't move forward too much." I'm sure you know it takes many years to train a good piaffe, I saw some good starting steps. Lots to improve of course, but then you could say that about ANY horse starting piaffe!

Thanks for the PLR vid, I have seen it before and like it. Oh, to have a seat like that!!! I think I might emigrate to Saumur.... I think he would receive reasonable marks for that test today, but as Lisa says they do prefer the more expressive horse at the moment, so whether he would win or not depends on who else was in the class, as always!

I do kind of agree with Lisa about the feeling you get from these horses. I know what horses like the grey feels like, and he will feel light, but not in a good way tbh. The feeling from a horse in true self carriage with engaged quarters is just completely different. Like going from a pogo stick to a Ferrari, lol!

Out of interest, (genuinely, not meaning to be at all critical or confrontational! ) how many horses have you ridden who are at a very high level of schooling? I had my first trip out to Portugal in Sept to ride Lusitanos, I must have ridden nearly ten different ones, most trained to piaffe, passage, spanish walk etc and one who had canter pirouettes to die for, but I wasn't good enough to even attempt to ride those yet, lol! It was great to be able to ride piaffe and passage on several different horses, some were stiff in one way or another, some were heavier in the hand than others, but it was a great experience and one which I will definitely repeat. A brilliant education. I say this, because I cannot imagine doing the higher level work on a horse who goes like that grey! The pirouette horse was a passage machine, I had to be very careful not to give any collection signals when trotting or he would just instantly gather himself up into a wonderful passage, which was nice but not when you find yourself boinging around the arena instead of doing working trot, lol! It's nice in some ways to ride a horse like that, but then you also realise how much more you have to learn, lol! It would take a LOT of practice for me to ride that horse really well, I kept pressing the wrong buttons....

[Derek Clark]

jennyb said:

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you think the strung out and hollow grey horse is more likely to remain sound!

Because I don't think he's strung out or hollow (though i do agree that he is grey, lol!). There is a widespread belief that if a horse's neck is elevated then he must be hollow but that is not necessarily the case. It can be true, but it isn't as simple as that and in this case I'd say that he isn't hollow at all.

You say that the bay couldn't collect - he is doing half steps on a relatively loose rein - how much more collected do you want?!

I just checked the video again and didn't see much collection at all, apart from the collected canter near the end. In the half steps the strides are certainly shortened but not collected. In fact, the rider appears to be attempting to shorten the steps by compressing the horse between aids in opposition which is the cause of the bucking. This is proof positive that the horse is on the forehand. If he were collected (which implies weight shifted to the quarters) then he would be rearing to escape the opposition, not bucking.

[mta] I'd also agree that the reins are long, but certainly not loose, during the half steps.

how many horses have you ridden who are at a very high level of schooling?

A few, but not as many as I'd like. I'm thinking of heading to Portugal too at some stage for exactly the same reasons as you. Perhaps we should compare notes on where to go?

I have, though, ridden piaffe, passage and trot backwards on more than one horse that looks not unlike the grey.

Best wishes,

Derek

[Derek Clark]

On the subject of "working correctly", which is where this all started - most people's idea of "correct" these days stems from the German cavalry regulations of 1912. This is the basis on which modern competition training is built (though even there there was no mention of rollkur!).

In the interests of balance, here is a very different idea of "correct". This is a French website that pays homage to a very French line of masters including Baucher and Beudant - the latter was described as "the best rider I have ever seen" by Nuno Oliveira...

It's all in French, of course, but I think the pictures are interesting enough in themselves.

equi-leger.fr/default.aspx

Derek

[jennyb]

I agree that elevated neck does not equal hollow, but to me the horse was not using his back correctly. Perhaps we are looking for different things!

The bucking, well I actually thought it tied in with the use of the whip (not keen on that, but that's another story), and sometimes he tried to get his hind legs too underneath him and got into a muddle and bucked to sort them out. Loss of balance or feeling like their legs are in a tangle is a really common reason for bucking, IMHO! I'll admit to only watching the clip once, but my thoughts were definitely a horse learning the beginnings of piaffe, and therefore obviously not showing perfect work, the lowering of the haunches tends to come much later when the horse has the idea of the trot in slow forward motion. The trainer can clearly be heard telling her to just do half steps, and I thought the idea of these was just to give the horse the idea of the the very slow trot preparing for piaffe proper, and therefore one would not expect to see lowering of the haunches etc at this stage, but I could be wrong....!

Happy to compare notes on Portugal, I have only been to the one place so far but definitely plan on going back there. I think you need to be prepared to see more horses working in a frame more like the bay than the grey though!! Portuguese equitation is not all that dissimilar to French, but not like German (phew...). The place I rode at was very keen on having the horses on the vertical (not behind) and working in a more rounded frame than perhaps you are used to, but it's quite easy to see why they do that when you see the quality of piaffe and passage etc that the horses can do, very easily. It's just their way, there are some traditions like keeping stallions stabled, bullfighting and so on that you just have to kind of say "Ok, it's not how I would do things but I accept that it's your culture." I'd be very interested to compare notes with you, when you have been, on how you found the piaffe & passage on a horse in a more rounded frame, compared to one with the face well in front of the vertical, never having experienced that myself! The chap I rode with had all his horses in a similar frame (except for the young ones, who were allowed to use their heads and necks to balance as needed), and I went to a display with him one evening where I saw his Working Equitation teammates ride the same, and also Luis Valenca's lot did a display too, again showing the same.

I plan on getting Pedro over here to do a clinic in the spring, I can let you have the dates etc if you wanted to come over to watch?

[Derek Clark]

Jennyb said:

Perhaps we are looking for different things!

Yes, that's quite likely. Isn't it nice to be able to have different tastes without feeling any need to have a go at each other, though, lol!

The trainer can clearly be heard telling her to just do half steps, and I thought the idea of these was just to give the horse the idea of the the very slow trot preparing for piaffe proper, and therefore one would not expect to see lowering of the haunches etc at this stage, but I could be wrong....!

No, I agree completely. (Maybe we're both wrong ). But seriously, introducing piaffe that way is exactly what makes it appear difficult, imho. Having the neck low puts the weight toward the forehand and does nothing to encourage the horse to engage the quarters (lower the haunches). Shortening steps is NOT the same thing as collection and piaffe is about collecting, not just shortening strides. What you see in that video is repeated all over the world by people who use that method. Such is the power of dogma over rational thought... (The Emperor really isn't wearing any clothes!)

It's not the only way, though. Elevating the neck leads directly to lowering of the haunches (provided the horse doesn't hollow in the process) because it causes a shift of balance. The horse doesn't have to 'learn' anything except how to balance with a rider on his back. The "unstable balance" produced by this method - a horse ready to go in any direction, including up - is pure collection. The more a horse collects, the shorter the steps become and piaffe is the example of collection in place. As I'm sure you already know, though, the reverse is not true. Just because a horse is taking very short strides does not mean he is collected at all. That is precisely what makes the transition from grande passage (which requires NO collection at all - in the sense of shortening the base of support from the rear and carrying more weight on the haunches) to piaffe (which requires maximal collection) the most difficult of all.

The way that the 'half steps' method actually works is that the horse eventually figures out that if he elevates his own neck (which leads to a shift of balance and causes engagement aka lowering of haunches) then the rider/trainer stops demanding stuff and he gets rewarded.

It's a much less elegant, longer and more complicated way of achieving the same end result and it frequently doesn't work very well, hence there are so many "on the forehand" piaffes to be seen.

[mta] I have some very old film of Oliveira beginning piaffe by elevation of the neck with a horse he had worked in-hand for the first time ever the day before. It was literally the horse's 2nd ever training session and he piaffes beautifully in about 30 seconds. Oliveira then lets go of the reins and the horse continues in piaffe in total descente of the aids. That's the most impressive thing I've seen but only goes to show it really needn't be hard! I'd love to post that online but I'd be breaking the copyright. I'll happily show you next time you are here, though.

I plan on getting Pedro over here to do a clinic in the spring, I can let you have the dates etc if you wanted to come over to watch?

Yes, please. Would love to.

Best wishes,

Derek

[Mellymoo]

I can't add anything useful at all, but I just wanted to thanks everyone who has contributed - I think I have learned loads! I have watched the vids again after reading the comments, to see if I can see what you have all seen

[Catherine M-S]

Just like to echo mellymoo and say what an informative thread this is. Sad Saturday night in (but with wine ;D) so have watched all the videos. There were inconsistencies in rider one (whilst the trainer was saying well done) which a good RWYM trainer would address and I agree with all the worries about the wobbliness in video 2 (and in that saddle ).
So, I would have to say that I don't think either are great but much to enjoy in the later video clips of the AHA competition and the cadre noir.
Much to think about from the post on stretching the frame as I have croup high TB who favours the ears up rider's nostrils way of going and have just landed on a yard run by a dressage trainer - lovely people but I cannot tie my horse's head down just to fit in.
Have also ridden Lusitanos stallions in Portugal and learned loads - I got the number of the Portuguese equivalent of BD who gave me a list of yards. Internet was in its infancy when I did this so probably easier ways of going about it but the yard I visited was on the outskirts of Lisbon.

[spanisheyes]

Thanks for all of the input, I have been digesting it all and going back to the videos again.

To me, I cannot see that the grey is hollowing. Maybe I am too used to arabs with a naturally high head carriage

Interestingly, the grey has his own website. On there are some more pictures and videos. It looks like he started work as a western trained working cow horse.

If you look at the western video (be prepared to skip the first part which is slows of him in his paddock mane flowing and prancing) there is a man riding him western.

He is performing some spectacular (to me) moves when working a cow. In some of it he also seems to be working in a bosal, Im not sure about that though, wish I could zoom in on videos. What do we think of his work here?

Going to Donnalex's point about which horse would I want to ride and which do I think would remain sound in work

- I would pick the grey.

Thanks again, Im learning lots