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Post by jennyb on Dec 10, 2010 15:29:00 GMT 1
Ah, but the benefits of teaching a horse with a high head carriage to go with a lower frame and therefore use their bodies better is a whole new thread.... Or indeed any horse for that matter. Regardless of the breed and the natural way of going, ALL horses should begin their basic training by learning to stretch over their topline and reach into the rein. That's the most physically efficient way for them to carry a rider. If you carry the work on and advance the horse's training, they take a shorter outline in the collected work and raise their heads back up, *once the back is strong enough to cope with this*. Without the preliminary stretching work, the back will never become strong enough. This horse does duck behind the vertical a lot but he is not being held there. I have found, and I believe Heather has found the same with her Iberians, that horses with this kind of build can often do this as they learn how best to carry themselves. Mine does it a lot but I'm not concerned, it's just due to the stage of his training, I'm sure he will grow out of it. This leads me back to the very important point that you can't judge a whole training system, or indeed a horse, based on a few mins video clip. Far more revealing is watching progress over time. Those who only watched the first minute or so, particularly of the bay horse, are missing out on a lot of interesting, informative work.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 10, 2010 15:34:30 GMT 1
Hi spanisheyes,
That doesn't surprise me at all - is it a forum frequented by competition dressage people by any chance...?
The difficulty in talking about how horses move is that spoken or written language is woefully inadequate when it comes to communicating what matters - hence why we all struggle to describe what we like or don't like about what we see. It's not actually what we see that matters to the horse, only how it feels.
The bay horse looks pretty much like most of the horses that win dressage competitions whereas the grey doesn't. Competitive dressage is nowadays a matter of producing (breeding, more than anything) horses that 'look' a certain way, regardless of how that affects the horse's way of going.
When I'm training horses, I pay very little attention to appearance and focus on the feeling and the lightness with which the horse can respond to my aids. When I do that, the horses end up looking more and more like the grey and less and less like the bay. Some people like that look, others don't. I just go by the feedback I get from the horses...
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by jennyb on Dec 10, 2010 15:49:48 GMT 1
Hmm, that's rather a sweeping generalisation about the dressage world Derek! Do you have much to do with it at all? As you know, I compete and write at affiliated dressage comps regularly, and yes, I can certainly say that laregly, you have a point! There are quite a few around who just seem to want to force the horse into a shape and hope that will get them the results. However, there are also some outstanding horses and riders who are winning regularly, so when presented with a classically trained, happy horse who can execute the movements fluidly and with ease, the judges are only too happy to reward that. I'd say out of every show I go to, with on average 6-10 riders in each class, there are a small percentage who ride really nicely and are rewarded for that. It's not true to say that horses who look a certain way, regardless of their way of going, are rewarded. Totilas being the exception! But certainly at the grass roots level that I see, it seems more and more that short necks, overbent horses, flawed gaits etc are not rewarded. I know a small handful of judges who will automatically mark down for that. So the "competition dressage" vs other ways of riding comparison is not quite fair, although I do recognise that your current trainer and your soon-to-be-trainer both view competition dressage very harshly, so they no doubt affect your views. Might I politely suggest that more involvement in BD, as a spectator, writer or even competitor, might give you a more balanced view? I know it did for me....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2010 16:17:57 GMT 1
Ah, but the benefits of teaching a horse with a high head carriage to go with a lower frame and therefore use their bodies better is a whole new thread.... Yes but this discussion is about those two videos and which each of us prefer - and I prefer to see horses worked like the grey I think the most interesting thing from this thread is that some of the most knowledgeable people on here disagree over which they prefer!! Just shows there is no definitive answer ;D
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Post by jennyb on Dec 10, 2010 16:25:06 GMT 1
I was referring to your comment about horses going around "looking at the ground"....
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spring
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Post by spring on Dec 10, 2010 16:29:38 GMT 1
Give me that indoor school any day!! ;D
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Post by kafee on Dec 10, 2010 16:33:57 GMT 1
Hi spanisheyes, The bay horse looks pretty much like most of the horses that win dressage competitions whereas the grey doesn't. I pay very little attention to appearance and focus on the feeling and the lightness with which the horse can respond to my aids. Yes, (I think) I know what you mean, Derek. I watched a bit of both recordings. Both horses and riders are far more acomplished than I and my ponies will ever be. Yet, while the bay is (I believe) very well schooled, and technically good at what it does, for me there is 'joy' in the performance. The grey on the other hand actually appears to be enjoying what he is doing.
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Post by lisap on Dec 10, 2010 17:45:06 GMT 1
Hmmm, Derek, you are a rowing sports coach - would it be fair to say that the training that rowers do will inevitably lead to similar muscular development in a team of rowers? Of course, some frames will be lighter, and some bulkier, but overall, wouldn't a rowing team have a certain 'look' to their bodies?
If you look at the classically trained horses at the Spanish Riding School, they are incredibly powerfully muscled, and they are not competing in modern dressage competitions. My own experience would lead me to believe that sometimes riders can mistake weakness for lightness, and responsiveness to aids may not translate into ability to respond well. Horses that are muscularly soft, with big bellies can be light and responsive, but will not be fit or strong enough to maintain self-carriage and impulsion. That inability to maintain will then prevent them from continually being able to improve, and will certainly prevent a horse from performing high school movements with ease and brilliance, and over a period of time.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 10, 2010 18:01:02 GMT 1
Hi Jenny, Yes, it is a bit of a sweeping generalisation... but also one that I believe has more than a grain of truth in it. Neither I nor any of the trainers I've studied with (or will soon be studying with ) have anything against the concept of competitive dressage but I think we do all have quite strong views about a lot of what we see actually going on in those circles. Again, this is a generalisation and I wouldn't for a moment say that there aren't exceptions - in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you and I feel pretty much the same way about things on the whole. I'm sure I've said this a thousand times already but the difficulty that competitive dressage faces is that while "a good riding horse" used to be something that was judged by feel (light to the hand, light to the leg, comfortable to ride and trustworthy, to quote just one old master), "a winning dressage horse" is something that is judged purely by eye. Notwithstanding all the wonderful qualities that top competition horses possess, how can it possibly be a good thing that an Olympic dressage champion horse wouldn't halt or stand still in the test that won the gold medal? How can it be a good development of 'top' riding horses that it's now considered unreasonable to expect them to be brought in to the arena and stand still for a prize giving ceremony? It's quite possible that if I spent more time at dressage competitions I might well change some of my views, but would that be as a result of seeing more well-trained horses than I expect or just my becoming accustomed to seeing so many horses looking the same that it would start to seem 'normal'? I'm reminded of a story I heard recently of a vet who asked a bunch of kids to point to the horse's poll during a talk on anatomy - they all pointed to the third cervical vertebra "because the poll should be the highest point and that's what the highest point is in all the photographs we see". Throughout classical literature there are tests which have been used to check whether a horse's training is 'correct' or not - Levade, for example, is only possible out of a correct piaffe. This is a matter of physics (balance) and not opinion. I'd wager that the grey would find levade a heck of a lot easier than the bay in those two videos. Now, of course, that's only my opinion but it's based on what I've observed in horses trained in such a way as to develop the kind of piaffe that enables levade. Naturally, the only way to really find out about those two would be to ride both horses and ask them! So here's a radical idea - instead of judging dressage competitions by looking at the horses, let's get the judges to ride them, perform the requisite tests (e.g. levade) and give their opinions based on what they feel. Then I might be more interested in taking part! Anyway, as I said before I'm not here to criticise others, so I don't want to go too far down this particular avenue. I hope that these words clarify a little without being intended to inflame or upset anyone. Best wishes, Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 10, 2010 18:13:33 GMT 1
Lisap said:
Hi Lisa,
The answer to that is yes and no. If a team of rowers undertook the same training programme there would be some general similarities but the individuals would all respond in different ways. Some would build more muscle than others but the fastest rowers are not always the biggest or most muscled ones. That's a very well documented phenomenon (and one that I used to advantage on many an occasion in my coaching career ;D).
I don't understand what you're getting at here...? The 'look' I'm referring to when I mentioned things that get 'rewarded in competition' is not the shape or size of the horse's muscles but the horse's skeletal posture and movement patterns. They are totally independent of muscle bulk, though muscle development is of course related to posture.
I agree with a lot of your final paragraph too - again, though, I'm not talking about any particular pattern of muscle development but rather skeletal posture and movement patterns.
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by laurac on Dec 10, 2010 18:16:10 GMT 1
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 10, 2010 18:24:03 GMT 1
Not an Arab, but this is something along the lines of what I think a well trained horse looks like... www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bi6VwaUlrs Now, would it win a dressage competition in the modern day and if not, why not? Best wishes, Derek
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Post by lisap on Dec 10, 2010 18:40:19 GMT 1
Laurac wrote: I must just be in one of *those* moods today! Laurac, this Arab is imo the least correct of the three Arabs we have seen so far. He has what is called a 'hovering' hind end - very common in the breed, and very difficult to overcome. The natural athleticism of the horse disguises the fact that there is no real engagement of the hindquarters, they sort of float about behind the saddle. To my eye it always looks un pleasing, and it's really difficult to get real connection from the back to the front. However, *nudges Derek mischieviously*, the horse will 'feel' very light and fluffy, but it isn't actually working properly from behind, so it is really conning the rider a bit. Derek wrote about the Cadre Noir clip: Probably not, but not because the training is not sound and the movements very nicely executed. This is where we are back to breeding and fashion. Today's grand prix dressage horses have phenomenal natural paces - they come out of the womb being able to do grand prix movements, so training will result in extra brilliance that the best trained more 'ordinary' horse can never match. However, the *rider* is just to die for as far as his posture and expertise is concerned. What he would have been able to do with one of today's multi-million pound horses would have been something to watch.... But - I would far rather ride this horse in Derek's clip, as I think I might have a fighting chance of surviving the experience, not so sure about saying the same of some of the dressage 'stars' of today.
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Post by mandal on Dec 10, 2010 18:47:12 GMT 1
Everyone on the other forum is raving about the bay horse and thinking it has a wonderful way of going but I prefer the grey. It is annoying me that I cant pinpoint what it is about the bay that I dont like Every day is a school day. I can't talk about what I see in dressage speak but I concentrated on the horses and how they appeared to me. Not scientific or with good knowledge of horses body mechanics just what looked and felt righter. Hmmm another new word lol. I sometimes wonder if we get used to seeing certain things and then anything other looks not right? Of course what looks right may be 'wrong' for the horse. I tend to have faith in horses ability to know/learn how to carry themselves even with a rider. Of course assuming no physical issues and a senstive rider. Mmmm out of my depth here! lol
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Post by laurac on Dec 10, 2010 18:50:30 GMT 1
Lisap, the horse is now competing grand prix level apparently so maybe the judges havent spotted the hoovering hind end! I'm really no expert whatsoever but i liked this horse because it looked like and arab and not an arab being made to look like a warmblood, just my own humble opinion as we were looking at arabs working
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