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Post by mandal on Dec 13, 2010 21:43:25 GMT 1
Thanks for that description Derek. The video on the last link doesn't seem to want to be there for me.
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Post by spanisheyes on Dec 13, 2010 22:57:33 GMT 1
Wow Derek I just adored that last clip of the Akhal Teke. Before this thread I never even knew what terre a terre was. Well, for me there is no contest between the first bay on this thread and that last clip along with the Akhal Teke piaffing. I think 'fantasy' equitation is a good description. The lightness, the harmony, the natural expression in the way the horse moves, I just loved it! I am so ignorant I never even knew that Akhal Tekes were trained to such high levels, and that they seem to demonstrate an aptitude for it.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 13, 2010 23:52:32 GMT 1
This has been a great thread, hasn't it?
The thing is, virtually any sound horse can do all the stuff we've seen in these clips if the training is done in a way that works with the horse instead of trying to force him (or her!) into doing it a certain way. Sure, some horses will always have more of an aptitude for certain stuff than others, but it's not the horses that have to learn, really, it's the humans. Good dressage works for any horse!
Mandal - I've had some trouble loading some videos now and again. I don't know what the problem is but if you leave it for a while it should load eventually.
Best wishes,
Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 0:00:25 GMT 1
Jenny said:
The combined effect (l'effet d'ensemble) does the trick - eliminates the energy and immobilises and relaxes the horse. You'd need to train it in calmness first, though, with most horses it won't just 'work'.
Derek
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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2010 10:39:04 GMT 1
Is this the one Derek? Now I understand Kanga's comment about clatter. www.youtube.com/user/phil69007I actually am worried about the effect on the horses legs etc. doing such prolonged concussive work in shoes and on a hard surface. Not keen on that but I can appreciate the years and accomplishment of the training and horses ability. I was thinking this morning about human athletes and intense effort. Most seems to be in short bursts as in gymnasts, weightlifters etc. I suppose rowing ( ) comes under sustained extreme effort but generally extreme effort seems to be in short bursts. Stamina events require sustained effort but not extreme effort... Just wondering is this is relevant to asking horses to sustain extreme effort (even when well trained and fit). Collection is not maintained for extended periods in natural gaits it comes and goes...
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 14, 2010 10:55:50 GMT 1
Been away for a while and look where the thread goes eh!
I am liking the last few clips from Derek and the work from Lisas clip aside from the hind bounce piaffe- you see this bouncy bottom in many places.
It seems that these horses are freer and sound. Does no one else see the the first clip of the bay as unsound?
The thing is the horses in these later clips will have a longer ridden life than the bay in the first clip on this thread and surely that is what effective and sensitive training is all about, to notice when something isn't working for the horse, rather than just push on because it is "correct". Many problems are solved by correct work but it is surely about finding the balance.( pardon the pun)
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 11:09:05 GMT 1
Yes Amanda, if you read the thread you will see that lots have commented on the bay's movement! You confessed to only watching a short time of each clip, IMHO the bay's movement improved as the clip went on, which led me to my comment in my first post....
As to it's future soundness, I don't see how anyone can judge that without knowing more about the usual standard of work or methods of training. You are only seeing a snapshot, after all...
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 11:22:46 GMT 1
Hi mandal,
Yes, that's the one.
Of course it's probably a good idea to be have concern for the effects of any work on the horse. You'd have to compare this to, say, trotting down the road for 5 minutes with a horse on the forehand. Having said that, (a)I don't think for a moment that what you see in the video was filmed all in one continuous go (b) when a horse is properly collected like this then there is much less concussion through the legs than trotting down the road on the forehand because the 'springs' of the hind legs are taking much more of the load and (c) the rider has a very supple seat so his weight will be having very little impact on the legs (some people might call this a 'floppy middle', however!). I suspect that he chose to do this little display in that courtyard precisely for the auditory effects, actually. You sometimes see people (especially the Portuguese School) do this sort of work on a plywood board because it magnifies the sound of the footsteps and so you can tell how 'correct' the footfalls are.
Interesting point, that. Most sports injuries occur either as a result of prolonged low intensity efforts or 'impacts' with equipment or other players. High intensity effort usually isn't much of a problem unless it is done very suddenly with no preparation. A normal person, even if very well trained, will reach psychological exhaustion (where they give up the effort) well before physiological exhaustion (where something breaks).
Low intensity training over long durations is the biggest cause of problems in rowers, for sure. The sorts of injuries weight lifters get tend to be from losing balance and getting twisted into awkward positions rather than muscle tears or joint wear problems just from doing the work.
[mta: so that has some implications for horse training that involves going round and round at trot for ages at a time...]
Sort of, but it depends how you train the horse. Collection is a very complex phenomenon. Most Iberians or horses with similar conformation are at least half collected to start with, even when standing still, whereas warmbloods are generally at the other end of the scale having been bred more from conformations designed to run or pull and therefore much more on the forehand.
A horse trained according to French methods (especially those of Baucher) is collected to a greater or lesser degree almost all the time right from day one and gets very accustomed to it. This is balanced with periods of stretching (long and low) and if the training is well done such a horse can be asked to extend and will do so when asked. The rider mustn't block with the hands, legs or seat when asking for the extension, however, or the horse will just refuse to do it. This sometimes leads to a criticism of such horses having 'lost forwardness'.
On the other hand, horses trained according to the modern competition methods (the "Richtlinien") are trained to lengthen and develop maximal push first and are then intended to be 'collectable' towards the end of the training. If the training is done well then you get to a similar end point but it takes longer and during the process any given horse will appear to find collection much harder than an identical one trained the other way.
When training is effective, it's usually very hard to say that's it's pure 'French' or pure 'German', though. Good training is really the best of both worlds.
Derek
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 14, 2010 11:32:36 GMT 1
I agree - I just see more than a few young( 8 yrs ish) broken down dressage horses who are worked in this ( sort of) way and can't help but wonder...... Life is there to learn.....
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 11:44:54 GMT 1
Hmm, from what I understood, it is the hyperflexed type of riding with a lot of force which commonly breaks down horses by aged 8. Does anyone know how old this bay horse is? From his physical development and level of training, I would guess 8yo at least if not older. Although there are certainly those working at his level and beyond much younger, when they are backed at 2yo....
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 11:53:05 GMT 1
Jennyb said
I'm sure that'll do it but it's not the only way...
In my view, the bay in the first vid is hollow - even though his head is relatively low - which is having knock-on effects on how he uses his back end. The unstable movement of the hocks is extremely concerning and if it continues that will be the place where he is likely to break down. This sort of problem is, sadly, not at all unusual in competition horses that I see too.
Derek
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Post by jennyb on Dec 14, 2010 11:57:46 GMT 1
As previously - we are both seeing different things with the first two horses! I see causes for concern in the bay (the hocks) but also in the grey (no stretch over the topline, little weight carrying ability shown for collection, IMHO combined together = high risk of kissing spine!). As before, we will have to agree to disagree on that point, lol!
I think it's fair to say that there are many ways of breaking a horse down through poor riding and training.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 12:03:51 GMT 1
Hi Jenny,
Yes indeed, I'm happy to agree with you on both concerns, actually.
There is always the chance that the grey could be tight in the back - the only way to really know is to ride the horse and feel what happens while testing it through balance questions (transitions). Anything other than that is guesswork on either of our parts. This is why I hate getting into any discussions without having the horse in front of me at the time.
Derek
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Post by wabuska on Dec 14, 2010 12:05:29 GMT 1
In a spontaneous canter to halt transition... is the rider actually supposed to entangle their ankles in the horse's ears and shriek Jenny? Because I just did that.... ehem.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 14, 2010 12:12:25 GMT 1
If you shrieked a different name it might not work as well... ;D
Derek
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