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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Dec 23, 2006 22:32:45 GMT 1
so xxx in that situation what would do? you have hold of the horse...asking it to back up...it doesnt! if you then lead it forwards it has won so would you just stand in the passage for an hour hanging onto the horse and hope it remembered it manners before it ran over you?
im not saying that i would have acted the same way (never been in the situation) but in the split second i can see why the decision was made to handle it as janet did.
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Post by eileen on Dec 23, 2006 22:45:19 GMT 1
If i was in a situation that looked dangerous then i would have taken him out, turned him round and put him back in his stable, i cant see how he would have won because his whole point of getting out was to get to the filly wasnt it? if put back in his stable then he cant get to the filly. i wouldnt hit a horse in a narrow passage way in case he went up or ran forward, just my opinion. eileen x
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Post by sueabbery on Dec 23, 2006 22:56:58 GMT 1
If i was in a situation that looked dangerous then i would have taken him out, turned him round and put him back in his stable, i cant see how he would have won because his whole point of getting out was to get to the filly wasnt it? if put back in his stable then he cant get to the filly. i wouldnt hit a horse in a narrow passage way in case he went up or ran forward, just my opinion. eileen x I think you will find he was on his way to the filly so if Janet led him forward he got to the filly, she would then have to get him passed the filly turn him round then lead him back passed the filly. Now if he had got to the filly all hell could have broken out if he hasn't long been gelded filly/gelding and Janet could have been hurt. He was asked nicely to to go back the way he came he didn't so Janet took the safest option for her and the youngster. Her option worked no harm done. Perhaps if Janet has 5 mins to spare tomorow she will drop an IH book into the youngster so he can learn how he is expected to behave ;D
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Post by jen1 on Dec 23, 2006 23:02:34 GMT 1
sorry i haven't read the whole thread, so in direct response to ops, question, id probably start off with ground work, the yo yo works very well in a case like this, do it in the school or where ever and do it till you have control, also backing up sessions by tapping a stick on the floor and asking for backing up, while you remain still, do it till your horse is an expert, also standing still on command is also very good, but very hard to teach good luck op,
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Post by eileen on Dec 23, 2006 23:02:54 GMT 1
Aaah, right, i didnt realise he was on his way to the filly, i would be worried about his reaction when hit, this time it was ok but it may not have been. must learn to read posts properly! :-) eileen x
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blueali
Olympic Poster
water horse vs. land horse
Posts: 822
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Post by blueali on Dec 23, 2006 23:39:52 GMT 1
Bit of de ja vous in the middle there so I haven't read it all. I have to say re Janet's colt I honestly may have done the same as her but would regret it. If it was led past the filly then back past to its stable it would not have achieved its goal unless it was allowed to make contact with the filly. I would like to think I would have asked for a few back steps once past the filly to ensure the colt knew that lesson but when it had such a strong alternative urge sapping its concentration I would not be suprised by its behaviour. After all it should not have been in that situation in the first place (human error) and hopefully won't be in it again. Many a time have I read many of you saying you can forgive your horse not obeying you because of its eating instict, I believe as an excuse to this op's horses behaviour!
I believe a mature, established horse in a consistent environment has no excuse for not 'controlling' its instincts.
As for the original problem, resorting to violence seems unnecessary when there are several other factors that can help the problem, eg. getting the staff to be consistent and put him back in the stable until he exits nicely, not leaving him to be the last to be turned out. What about my earlier suggestion about putting a solid slip rail across the doorway, or perhaps putting some carrots in a bucket just outside the doorway (so he stops halfway) if he is food oriented (although I do remember you said he was happy to leave his breakfast. And if he only displays barging behaviour when exiting the stable you rally need to question what is his problem with his stable. As I said before my horse does not show stable vices when stabled and will eat etc. but shows real signs of distress and is keen to get out (although she would not barge she is bolshy by her standards). But because she is stressed she is much less receptive to my commands. On the other hand I am not a fluffy IH gal and will use threatened or ocassionally actual violence on a horse that is trying to dominate me. But again if I had to use tis more than 1 or 2 times I would think it was the wrong course of action.
I do not like using any recognisible 'weapon' as I then find I need the horse to go near it and I have taught it a fear association. (I have the same reservations about stopping horses with umberellas). Rather it is my body language and the scarey noise I make that must be the deterrant, but a water pistol does seem like a good idea.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 24, 2006 0:38:37 GMT 1
I'm guessing you were alone at the time? I do respect your years of experience Janet, truly I do, because you have shown a kind side and I know other “traditional”, gentle, horse people I'm in awe of. However, I’ve got to ask, what would have happened had your boy decided to fight back after that confrontation? There is probably no right answer to that because self preservation would have to come into play. I just wondered whether you had ever considered alternative methods as a training tool? I'm not just referring to IH. No - my OH was there at the time - but he's as much use as a chocolate tea-pot around the colts. But I knew he'd give in - because he DOES know better - I've done a lot of groundwork with him and he normally leads out past the filly without a problem. But he sometimes pushes his luck - just to see if he can. He's not a very nice chap - I had planned to keep him as a colt as he's well bred, nicely marked etc - but since a foal his temperament has let him down (his mother is a very 'sharp' TB who was probably abused in racing judging by her behaviour when we first got her.) So he got the chop. Funnily enough, he's the first colt I've had gelded who showed a TOTAL improvement immediately afterwards - and then 'reverted to type' - although he's nowhere near as bad as he was. Well xxx, that shows how little you know about me! I very rarely lose my temper - even when provoked. And NEVER with horses! I learned at quite a young age that it was counter productive. And I didn't 'get hold of his headcollar' - my horses don't wear them in the stable or field. I had blocked his exit and grabbed a headcollar off a hook and put it on him before asking him to back up. I was between him and where he wanted to be (outside the filly's stable) - the passage in that block is only 5 foot wide - not ideal - but handy if you have to stop a loose horse. Yep - but I'm not Wonderwoman - and pushing 600 kg of horse back when he doesn't WANT to go back is a bit beyond me singlehanded. without a littled added persuasion. I wasn't too worried about my safety - but this is one horse I do NOT let 'get away with it'. He used to be downright dangerous - rearing and boxing at you with his front legs - and one victory is one too many!!
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xxx
Novice Poster
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Post by xxx on Dec 24, 2006 0:49:58 GMT 1
there you go, you 'were not worried' about your safety. I still fail to see how this would have been a victory. Sorry, but this seems to encompass your attitude, you cant let a horse 'get away with it', have to show it whos boss and put it in its place and don't let it 'get away' with anything. In this case, I believe the horse was out due to human error, so whether you believe the horse deliberately aimed to be let out is beyond me, I just don't understand why it is somehow a battle suddenly? Anyway, I think this thread has deviated a lot...someone else may have the last word but I'm out, and certainly understand more about things now.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 24, 2006 1:34:16 GMT 1
there you go, you 'were not worried' about your safety. I still fail to see how this would have been a victory. No - because I know the horse and I know he WILL back down (now!) But if you don't recognise that allowing a horse to deliberately ignore you and say 'WON'T' - and use its strength against you to get what it wants - is undesirable (both for you AND the horse), then heaven help you.
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anon
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,014
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Post by anon on Dec 24, 2006 6:11:20 GMT 1
Agree with Rosemary. Also Janetgeorge, I'm sorry but I doubt if anyone who is a regular on this forum would endorse the use of plastic pipe. I'm a regular on this forum - and yes - I would endorse the use of a plastic pipe on the chest to get the horses attention and surprise him enough to start listening. It doesnt hurt!!!!. No-one's advocating BEATING the horse with it!. If you read what janetgeorge says - yes she does spend a lot of time teaching groundwork - and she also has the experience to have had a lot if instances where there isnt time THIS time to teach groundwork - betcha she follow up with normal handling afterwards though 9i teaching groundwork) Getting staff to handle consistently, fairly and firmly is almost impossible with some people - one of the staff at my previous livery yard had my horse rearing - now he doesnt rear!. the only times he behaves ANYthing like that is when someone has frightened him - and that takes a lot - and I've asked the girl non-confrontationally how come he did rear (ages after the event, when she wasnt working with horse) - and she doesnt know!. Or at least she says she doesnt know. The most likely scenario is SHE got frightened and screeched at the horse for some reason - which got HIm frightened - and therfore he reacted. I dont suppose I'll ever find out why this horse who I've owned for 15 years has reared that one solitary time!
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Post by kirstie on Dec 24, 2006 11:47:48 GMT 1
i have been on this dg since the old days & yes i would of hit the cheeky beggar with the pipe too.
he knows better but decided to take the proverbial so needed to be reminded.
horses are too big,too strong & we will never win strength against strength with them so we need to do what we need to do.
i have 2 small children,they have their own pony so they come to the stables alot, if my big lad decided to do that then he would be put in his place pretty damn quick as i will not have a horse endanger my children or other people.
if that meant he got a smack with a hose pipe then so be it
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miggy
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,208
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Post by miggy on Dec 26, 2006 19:15:35 GMT 1
Hmmm im afraid i would too, i had a 16.2 once who would literally run through you.......... its no fun being dragged between a barbed wire fence and a barging horse......... and literally as soon as a gate catch is released, being jumped over.......... no time for the elbow in the chest theory, even leading through a stable door isnt that simple with one of these horses.I dont want any slagging off for this and i havnt read it all , i just remember this horse and how she learned to listen to something a bit different to an arm or whip....i used a strong cardboard tube which made an unusual noise..........tapping into her chest till she stepped back telling her to "WAIT" in a stern voice.You have to really concentrate and not take any chances
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naria
Grand Prix Poster
yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
Posts: 1,455
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Post by naria on Dec 26, 2006 20:17:45 GMT 1
I'm really struggling to see why some of you have such problems with what janetgeorge is saying. She isn't suggesting beating horses for no reason or using force when they don't know any better, merely a token (to a horse) force when the animal is out of line & knows it! At the end of the day an ill-mannered horse is dangerous - if my ID smacked you against the door post while barging out of the stable he could easily break your ribs & that is why he was taught in no uncertain terms that such behaviour is never acceptable. Jim is a big dominant horse & watching him can be very educational. When he was in a herd he was hardly ever involved in scraps for hay or jostling for position simply because if he showed any interest in something the others just moved out of his way. Squabbles tended to stop if he ambled towards them, he didn't like the aggro in his field. BUT if he didn't get the reaction from another horse that he wanted his "punishment" was fast & hard - he would literally charge the culprit & use his teeth & body against them. I've seen him shake horses by grabbing their neck in his teeth & heard of him deliberately knocking at least one horse over because it was in his place & wouldn't give ground. Yet generally he seemed well liked & "his" fields were always peaceful whatever he was in with. While I wouldn't (& couldn't) treat a horse like that it appeared to me that lessons were learnt quickly & well - as such how can we assume physical reprimands are always wrong With Jim I use his own methods on him - I very rarely need to remind him about his manners but if I do he is put down very firmly & no ground is given until he "says" sorry, any less than a very determined approach at these times can end up with him trying to discipline the handler ! Little Un is much more laid back about life & I don't think will ever need to be handled the way Jim occassionally does because although he can be a bit of an opportunist he doesn't try to dominate in the same way. Oddly though I don't think LU will ever be the natural gentleman that Jim usually is - he isn't as gentle & doesn't seem to have the same wish to please or self-discipline.
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