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Post by bhpride on Dec 20, 2006 14:41:16 GMT 1
I'm with Janetgeorge and Melanie 100% on this one ! Janetgeorge's horses learnt their lesson quicky - simply and clearly - which is important. I've done the same with my horses IF required, it depends on the individual horses temperament and the problem. They were happy, spoilt, loved, confident - with excellent manners, making them safe and a pleasure to be around. Why does everyone seem to act like horses are made of porcelain who'll suffer irreversible damage if so much as shouted at
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Post by bhpride on Dec 20, 2006 14:59:26 GMT 1
Bitten and kicked I expect
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Post by misty on Dec 20, 2006 15:06:31 GMT 1
My o/h's horse is top boy. In initially he will kick, bite, chase (at nearly 30!) any horse he doesn't feel is giving him respect. Then a look will do. The first lesson is short and sharp and is not often repeated. Luckily we can teach by gentler methods but in some cases I feel it does a horse no harm to 'throw you toys out of the pram'. We all need to know the consequences of our actions overwise how do we learn?
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Dec 20, 2006 16:39:54 GMT 1
Yes, but you still seem to miss the point, we aren't saying horses are made of porcelain and they can't be shouted at or w/e, more that we choose not to (in most cases). I can think of many a time when Tommy trod on my foot and I squawked rather involuntarily in pain, which made him jump two foot off my foot lol. However, the same results can be achieved with different short sharp shocks to hitting! She did improve but nowhere near as much as she did after she got a b*llocking for trying to run me over to get at food. Most of it was throwing my toys out of the pram and chasing her around the field with a lead rope, only actually made contact once, but after that she decided I was worth listening to. For example that may not be 'join up' monty roberts style, but it's the equivalent of it in my eyes. You moved her, using body language/noise/whatever and perhaps the rope caught her once but it was you she was running from and she thought hey wait a minute Her with the rope running after me, maybe she is worth listening to! - It's a short sharp shock minus the hitting in my eyes. I'm not saying I'm a master of body language, by any stretch, but it is possible that way! It's not a case of all one way, or not at all. It's what happens to work at the time and how much time you have It only takes a read of that thread about Pipers progress to show that anything is possible.
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Post by jill on Dec 20, 2006 17:18:51 GMT 1
Do you all think it's time to agree to differ on this one? Everyone has made their point, but a bit like the fox hunting debate, very very few people are likely to move from their positions on it. Points have been well made and well argued, but I reckon it's time to accept that everyone is different and as long as no horse is getting abused or person is getting injured we should go our separate ways on it. Unless of course someone has an entirely new take on it?
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iammizz
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Post by iammizz on Dec 20, 2006 17:22:32 GMT 1
what do ppl think about horses wearing flippers to cross streams?
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Post by misty on Dec 20, 2006 17:35:54 GMT 1
Only if they have legbands as well in matching colours.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Dec 20, 2006 18:03:30 GMT 1
No I don't think it is time to change the subject - I think this is an important subject. Moreover it is one close to the heart of the ethos of this board.
Yes, if you introduce a new adult horse to an established herd, you will get kicking, biting and barging. In an establish herd, such things re very uncommon, and even in our very artifical herds, you quickly a calm and stable situation. But the leader very rarely lets up on the task of being leader, and will move the others around a lot. For every episode of kicking or biting, there will be thousands where the leader simply moves another horse around. If you have a stable herd, something of course uncommon at livery yards, however well run, the boss normally stays boss, often (and it is very interesting to see this) into old age and ill health.
One thing I take exception to in this debate is the assumption that those of us who espouse IH have ill behaved horses. I don't! Neither do those IHers whose horses I know. It so happens all my current three have ended up with me because they had problems (ranging form bolshiness to utter terror) and this made them unappealing on the open market. It so happens that with me all three are useful animals who are a pleasure to handle on the ground.
But don't read me as saying that my horses are spoilt - they are not - or over indulged, or that I would think it wrong to use firm methods. But I believe in taking pain and real fear out of the equation. One thing I want even less that half a ton of determined bloody minded horse running me down is half a ton of frightened hurt bloody minded horse running over me.
I am not saying a show of noise, or an implied threat is of necessity wrong. I don't think it is. Swinging a rope, contacting the horse with a light line don't strike me as in any way unhelpful. But I can't envisage a situation where I think actually hurting a horse would be my chosen way forward.
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Dec 20, 2006 18:24:33 GMT 1
To hit, or not to hit, that does indeed appear to be the question. But I fear I have repeated myself several times so I shall cheer quietly from the sidelines:)
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 18:53:17 GMT 1
Yes, if you introduce a new adult horse to an established herd, you will get kicking, biting and barging. In an establish herd, such things re very uncommon, and even in our very artifical herds, you quickly a calm and stable situation. But the leader very rarely lets up on the task of being leader, and will move the others around a lot. For every episode of kicking or biting, there will be thousands where the leader simply moves another horse around. To a degree, I agree. I see more problems with the No 2 horse than the No 1 once a group is established. But even in well established groups, you DO get No 2 or 3 deciding to try and move up - using violence. And No 1 will retaliate with violence too - even though in the case of the two mares I referred to earlier, No. 1 was the one seriously injured (and those 2 will never go back in together again.) I certainly don't assume that. And I have no problem at all with the principles - nor the practice - of IH methods (or Parelli, or any other proper 'school' of horsemanship.) What I DO object to is the fact that those of us who have developed our knowledge and skills over many years, cherry-picking good ideas from many different types of trainers (including those who teach by example how NOT to do it) are seen by many IH 'disciples' as old school diehards who are cruel to our horses. I don't see much 'new' in IH - other than the marketing. I had the opportunity to watch a team of Australian 'horsebreakers' some 35 years ago working with 20 totally unhandled and virtually wild horses of 3 to 5 years old. It was a real education and although the methods (lassoing the horses from horseback in a corral, using the roping horse to hold them while the man on the ground worked up the rope, bagging them etc.) were not ones one would use in the English situation, I saw very little fear, no pain or ill-treatment, and all 20 were riding quietly in a maximum of 10 days. They used presure and release, they used an effective version of 'join-up', and they worked swith the horses natural instincts to overcome their fear. It was impressive - and I wish I'd had a video there! SOME things I learned from them I still use - although fortunately I don't meet many totally unhandled, wild 4 year olds these days. I've also seen the really rough breakers - not a pretty sight at all. Nor mine - stroking and soft words are normally FAR more effective in gaining a horse's trust - particularly one that has little handling or is frightened. ALL my horses (including young foals) will come to me in the field without hesitation. And the majority of my horses will never feel more than a light tap with the schooling whip behind the leg to re-inforce (or teach) the leg aid. That's as it SHOULD be. I do NOT favour hitting horses - as an education OR as a punishment. BUT - I repeat again - a smart tap on the chest using something suitable will not HURT a horse to any degree at all. And if it saves me weeks of time in getting a horse to pay attention to me - so I can start teaching it 'properly' - then I will use it (as they say, 'more in sorrow than in anger' - because it's not the horse's fault it's a bargey, ill-mannered horse - it's the fault of the people who handled it and mis-trained it previously.) I might add I have never had to use it more than a couple of times - and NONE of the horses I've had cause to use it with have shown ANY signs of being traumatised by it. Your three were lucky Hannah - you found them - or they found you. For many horses who are bolshy, ill-mannered, terrified - there is no such happy ending. I had a four year old Connemara x come over from Ireland last year SO terrified of everything it was weeks before we could catch him easily, and 8 weeks before we could get the farrier to trim his horribly neglected bad feet. Although he had allegedly been backed the year before, it was 8 weeks before we actually sat on him. It was a year before I felt confident to put him on the market - and I lost a lot of money on him because it HAD taken so long. But he has a great home, I get regular reports from his happy owner, and I feel good about it. The sharpest thing he EVER got was the odd verbal 'growl'. The man who sold him never deals with individuals - his horses are sold in batches - so if I hadn't got him he could have ended up anywhere and goodness knows what would have happened to the poor chap. EVERY horse is different. The key to success is not whether or not you'll countenance giving a horse a good smack or not, it's knowing whether that smack is justified and will be productive or not. And that no training course can teach - it takes many years of experience with literally hundreds of horses - and some people never achieve it. If I'm in ANY doubt over whether a horse's ill behaviour is due to fear or pain - or just learned ill manners - then I give it the benefit of the doubt until I AM sure (and by then, 8 out of 10 have improved enough to make the question academic.)
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sorne
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Post by sorne on Dec 20, 2006 19:00:25 GMT 1
In the real world, the strongest and toughest horse is 'top dog' - same with any pack/herd animal. And they often use considerable violence to establish their position. I'd recommend any book by Mark Rashid to explain the difference between the Alpha animal and the 'passive leader'. The Alpha animal is the one that gets respect by biting and kicking and being the strongest - that's the person with the blue pipe. The passive leader is the one the horses will follow because they are calm, sensible and consistent. That's the person who has taken the time to walk the horse in and out of the stable 20 times. Being the alpha leader can work with most horses most of the time, but often fails with more dominant horses at a time of greatest crisis - when the horse meets something that it fears more than the alpha leader. Being the passive leader means the horse will instinctively look to you for guidance at a time when he needs it most. I'm firmly with RosemaryHannah in this discussion - which I must say is extremely interesting!
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 19:24:45 GMT 1
I'd recommend any book by Mark Rashid to explain the difference between the Alpha animal and the 'passive leader'. The Alpha animal is the one that gets respect by biting and kicking and being the strongest - that's the person with the blue pipe. I've read quite a lot by Mark Rashid and agree with most of it. But I disagree with that analogy - at least as far as I'm concerned - because my relationship with my horses is NOT as one of the herd. I'm also not so sure that there is a clearly define Alpha animal and a 'passive leader' - at least not in small herds. In my very small 'herds' (I don't LIKE large groups of horses together for management reasons) the Alpha leader is the one the others follow at all times. Maybe it's different in a large herd - and of course in a 'natural' breeding herd you will have the stallion as boss, an Alpha mare (or two) and MAYBE there's a passive leader (or maybe she's bottom of the pack so no-one bothers to pick fights with her.) Yes, if you deal with your horses JUST as 'the boss' and don't also gain their affection and trust, you WON'T have a productive relationship. My horses (I hope - and their behaviour would suggest it) see me first as the bringer of food, and water, and pats - as a two-legged friend - who also has this strange idea that they should do as she asks. And because they trust me, they generally DO as I ask - even if I ask them to go past something terribly scarey. And they know there are some things I DON'T like - so they don't (generally) do them.
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Post by misty on Dec 20, 2006 19:46:19 GMT 1
The point is you could walk the horse in and out of the stable 50 -100 times and some horses will still barge. Not frightened, not traumatised, just bolshy and not always due to previous owner, just bolshy.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 20:00:07 GMT 1
The point is you could walk the horse in and out of the stable 50 -100 times and some horses will still barge. Not frightened, not traumatised, just bolshy and not always due to previous owner, just bolshy. I don't think I'd agree with that. The finished horse is the product of its parents' genetic make-up (good natured parents have good natured foals), its upbringing by its mother and other mares/foals that live with it (a bossy mare will tend to have a better-mannered foal than a very placid mare who is bossed around by her foal or a foal reared JUST with its mother and no other horses), and the handling/training it receives from humans from a very young age. Yes, some foals are born with a bit more 'attitude' than others - but handling and peer pressure usually sorts that out. I have a 3 year old who was reared by a very placid mother and with no other field companions. She was a bossy little Madam by the time she was a month old. Once weaned, she was with an older companion and improved - a bit. But she still tries to intimidate and boss other horses, and has been known to try it on with people. I have two half-sisters to her (out of the same dam) and they show no signs of the same problems and I think that is partly due to the fact they have a different father - but mainly to the fact that they were reared with other (bossy) mares and foals.
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Dec 20, 2006 20:12:15 GMT 1
Not if you teach it not to invade your space:) IT's not just leading it's foundation groundwork! [modified to say that was a response to Misty, janetgeorge snuck her reply in before mine ]
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