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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Dec 21, 2006 14:31:11 GMT 1
marion...dont be soory ive found this thread one of the most interesting that has been up for ages!
ans xxx...i didnt see anybody throwing insults around just there own opinions.
so can i just get this right? the horse we are talking about ... will barge at the door when the bolt is undone... you dont have to have got as far as opening the door? if you ask him to move off to the back of the stable does he? does he do it with both you and the staff and has he always done it?
Otto learnt that if he kicks the door enough then the bolt rattles across and he can get out...l always have to check that the kick bolt is on and he has two other bolts on his door too.
i dont no how practical it would be but in Ottos stable we have had a second door put in which opens inwards this means that he has to move back as i open the door and he cant throw himself at it...he loves mummy and nomatter how much he wanted to get out wouldnt risk squishing his only means to food!
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Post by kirstie on Dec 21, 2006 23:02:18 GMT 1
jay was a total git when i got him,he kicked doors,snapped bolts off them to get out & would run over you when you went in. at 17.1hh id x TB he is to big to do this & needed to be taught to stop it.
using something like Janet's methods he is now 4 months down the line 90% better,he hasn't broken a door & ran over me for at least 2 months,he still trys to get out if you leave the door open but nothing like before ;D
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Post by eileen on Dec 21, 2006 23:14:19 GMT 1
I havent read all of this thread but can i ask a question please? if you got an RA out to your horses would you be happy if they came armed with a plastic pipe and then used it on your horse? Would you think this "the right way" to deal with the problem ? eileen x
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 22, 2006 0:16:34 GMT 1
I havent read all of this thread but can i ask a question please? if you got an RA out to your horses would you be happy if they came armed with a plastic pipe and then used it on your horse? Would you think this "the right way" to deal with the problem ? eileen x Well I personally would be furious if it was their initial approach - whether it was an RA or anyone else. Whatever method is used to solve a problem it should only be employed after a full assessment of the horse's character, and observing the horse's reaction to its owner or regular handler, enquiring into its background and what has already been tried, and handling the horse quietly under a variety of situations. The vast majority of horses will respond correctly with a calm, confident approach - even youngsters who have NOT been trained. I'm currently teaching four weanlings - housed in pairs - to step back from the door when I enter. I stop outside the door, they push forward expecting feed, I say back and use a pushing back movement with my hand (without touching them.) When they take a step back, I enter and repeat the command - if necessary giving a gentle push back on their chests - with my hand. And in just a week, they've got the message. This works with most adult horses too - if the body language is right and if they haven't learned that barging gets them what they want faster.
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 22, 2006 0:32:43 GMT 1
He needs to learn some respect! And fast! Getting knocked over is no fun - neither is getting jammed between the stable door and a horse! Have had several horses arrive here with this rather nasty habit. Keep a piece of polythene pipe by the door - the sort used for underground water. When you approach the door, show him the pipe and tell him to get back BEFORE you open the door. Once you're in, keep telling him 'back' (sternly!) until you've closed the door behind you. If he attempts to barge past you, USE the pipe - on his chest. Makes a nice loud noise and will sting without marking or cutting him. Keep that door firmly shut until you have a headcollar or bridle on him. Speak to yard manager/staff about how to ensure he doesn't do it. He'll learn! I have a VERY large RID stallion who used to TRY to do the same. Now I just point a finger at him and say 'back' - he does as he's told. Janet, there is a marked difference between what you said previously and what you are saying now? Did you come here with preconceived ideas that we are all softies and want to put us right? ;D You seem to be mellowing somewhat?
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 22, 2006 1:05:41 GMT 1
Janet, there is a marked difference between what you said previously and what you are saying now? Did you come here with preconceived ideas that we are all softies and want to put us right? ;D You seem to be mellowing somewhat? No - I don't think so (and I'm not as new as I appear - used to post here but somehow lost my log-in and was away for a while - too busy in the stud season and with my own forum.) The original post was an owner very worried about a horse with a habitual barging out of stable problem that was causing her a lot of concern. She gave the impression that she'd tried the moderate approach and it HAD worked - but the livery yard staff were having trouble and therefore the horse was getting worse (he'd learned he could get away with it.) With that sort of horse, the approach I suggested DOES work - and quickly - which was what she needed. I knew she'd get plenty of alternative suggestions and would choose which she felt would work best. BUT, if the horse had come to me for training with no background, I certainly wouldn't assume that approach was best - I don't know the horse. I'd want to get to know it first and assess for myself whether its behaviour warranted a stern approach. But I FAR prefer to work with a horse that hasn't developed bad habits - or learnt it can shove people around. The first thing I teach my youngsters is that I'm their friend - and right after that I teach they to do what I say. With babies, it's easy. - and absolutely essential when those cute little babies are going to end up 17 hh and weighing 750 kg! I don't think you're all softies - there are some very knowledgeable and thoughtful horsemen/women on this forum. But there are some who perhaps lack experience with horses that have learned to use their very considerable strength against people. A lot of those horses learnt that as cute little foals who got lots of cuddles and got away with being pushy and behaving badly because they were cute. Somewhere down the line, someone has to say 'stop' to these horses - and mean it. Once they start listening, then you can start teaching.
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jo
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Post by jo on Dec 22, 2006 11:32:02 GMT 1
janetgeorge - excellent thread. I look forward to reading any of the threads you reply to. I am guilty of thinking alot of the people who reply on this forum are not actually experienced enough to deal with horses other than their own (LIKE ME!), sometimes they have excellent theory for the text book horse who is willing to learn but not enough real hands on practical horsemanship with other, more complicated or spoilt horses. Great to be able to listen to some common (horse)sense approaches.
Human must not get hurt - rule number one Horse must not get hurt - rule number two Horse must be calmer than when you started out - rule number three. Think that's a John Lyons saying, can't remember where I saw that but it sticks with me. Principles of training?
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 23, 2006 16:03:10 GMT 1
Yes, my Alpha mares can quietly intimidate others into moving away from what Alpha mare wants - but that's only after they're TAUGHT the others by a few (or more) damn good bites or a couple of double-barrelling sessions! ... Thankfully we don't have to compete on strength terms - we'd lose. But we DO need to occasionally draw a boundary line in terms a horse understands! 9 out of 10 horses who come to me for re-schooling don't (initially) know there IS a boundary. ... my relationship with my horses is NOT as one of the herd. ... But he KNOWS you're not a horse - which is why the Alpha argument doesn't work for me. A horse's initial view of a human is that he's a threat - to be run away from. ... The vast majority of horses will respond correctly with a calm, confident approach - even youngsters who have NOT been trained. In these and other points, I think Janet George is spot on. I too have enjoyed reading this thread - what an interesting discussion!
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 23, 2006 16:35:31 GMT 1
Agreed! This is a classic case of internet discussion and how we can each take a different perception of a poster’s comments. My opinion of Janetgeorge, from her first post on this particular thread, wasn’t entirely approving. That said, my respect increased as the thread grew and it is clear that she is indeed very fair. I may not entirely agree on some points but I certainly have a good deal of respect for her for her views and for remaining polite throughout. Merry Christmas all!
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 23, 2006 18:17:56 GMT 1
My opinion of Janetgeorge, from her first post on this particular thread, wasn’t entirely approving. That said, my respect increased as the thread grew and it is clear that she is indeed very fair. I may not entirely agree on some points but I certainly have a good deal of respect for her for her views and for remaining polite throughout. Merry Christmas all! Cheers circusdancer - et al. You WOULDN'T have approved of me today when I found myself facing my very ill-mannered coloured ex-colt in a narrow corridoor (wretched trainee groom had left his door unfastened AGAIN - I'll kill her after Christmas! ) He would NOT back-up (and I wasn't going to let him get to the filly he still fancies - or lead him out to turn him around.) Body language - forget it. Firm pulls back on the headcollar - accompanied by a stern 'BACK'! (and he does know the command!) failed to make ANY impression at all. So I grabbed the nearest thing handy (filly's headcollar and leadrope) and he got a couple of GOOD whacks on the neck and chest. He then suddenly 'remembered' that he can back up when told. I FAR prefer being 'nice' - but when it's a choice between 'nasty' and flat on my back with a 15 hh ratbag dancing on my chest, I'll force myself to be nasty. The horse in question has always been a bit of a ratbag - gelding him worked for a while, but sadly you can only do that once!! Happy Christmas all - I hope you have time to enjoy it. Sadly, I won't - as the staff have Christmas Day off and I've got 45 horses to do single-handed - including 20 stabled! And every one of them will get out of the stable - either to the horse-walker, or the outdoor yards, or the manege. Regrettably, THEY don't know it's Christmas.
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 23, 2006 21:26:13 GMT 1
You’re right, I wouldn’t have approved! I appreciate you were in a potentially dangerous situation there, but the environment you were in and the actions you took ie firm pulls back on the head collar accompanied by a stern BACK, backed up by “a couple of GOOD whacks with a head collar and lead rope”, could possibly have endangered you more. I'm guessing you were alone at the time?
I do respect your years of experience Janet, truly I do, because you have shown a kind side and I know other “traditional”, gentle, horse people I'm in awe of. However, I’ve got to ask, what would have happened had your boy decided to fight back after that confrontation?
There is probably no right answer to that because self preservation would have to come into play. I just wondered whether you had ever considered alternative methods as a training tool? I'm not just referring to IH.
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 23, 2006 21:34:41 GMT 1
But if you could get a hold of his headcollar, could you not have led him out, turned round and put him back in his stable? Sounds to me like you lost your temper. Don't think many people would approve.
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Post by sueabbery on Dec 23, 2006 21:45:57 GMT 1
I have a 20 mth old who stands at 15.3hh now he is wc x TB he likes to try it on the whole time even though he has been taught how to behave and knows how to behave he can not resist pushing a bit to far. If he can not get his own way he has no worries about barging into who ever is leading him or barging out of his stable. I have now found the altimate weapon it's called water which comes out of a squeezy container straight onto his muzzle. He now stands back when asked he moves over when asks and he waits when he is asked. He knows if he doesn't he gets a squirt of water. He has always been rewarded for good behaviour with plenty of praise.
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Post by sueabbery on Dec 23, 2006 21:57:13 GMT 1
But if you could get a hold of his headcollar, could you not have led him out, turned round and put him back in his stable? Sounds to me like you lost your temper. Don't think many people would approve. Erm don't think you read what Janet wrote. You do not argue with a youngster who is threatening to dance on your chest in a narrow passage. That youngster needed to be backed up pretty dam quick for safety reasons. Leading him past the filly which he was trying to get too would have meant in his eyes he had got the better of her and that is the last thing Janet needed.
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 23, 2006 21:59:53 GMT 1
no, I don't think you read it? She was holding his headcollar and obviously able to use it to push backwards 'Firm pulls back on the headcollar ' so whilst I appreciate self preservation may have kicked in, I also reckon there was an element of 'how dare you' in there and I think several good wallops with a rope is NOT good.
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