sorne
Elementary Poster
Posts: 84
|
Post by sorne on Dec 20, 2006 20:21:55 GMT 1
I've read quite a lot by Mark Rashid and agree with most of it. But I disagree with that analogy - at least as far as I'm concerned - because my relationship with my horses is NOT as one of the herd. IMHO (and I'm quite happy to admit that I don't have anything like your wide ranging experience) my horse doesn't really understand any other type of relationship - simply because he's a horse and can only understand things in horse terms. My horses (I hope - and their behaviour would suggest it) see me first as the bringer of food, and water, and pats - as a two-legged friend - who also has this strange idea that they should do as she asks. And because they trust me, they generally DO as I ask - even if I ask them to go past something terribly scarey. And they know there are some things I DON'T like - so they don't (generally) do them. My understanding of the relationship between me and my horse is that I'm the leader first - and just happen to bring food etc. (horses don't bring each other food) That explains when we've been in situations when I haven't been the bringer of food (when he's been on livery) I have still been the leader. I'm the leader not because I'm stronger and fiercer (because I'm obviously not) but because by following me and obeying me he stays safe. For example - and this is several years ago, when I was only sharing him and just starting to learn about IH - I arrive to find him in the field with his fly-sheet half off and flapping around behind him. As you would expect he's galloping around in a complete panic being attacked by something he can't quite see. As soon as he sees me, he slows down and trots to the gate calling to me: I'm the one he goes to when he's afraid, he knows I know what to do - and *that's* the relationship I want with my horse. Like I said - great discussion!
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 21:08:38 GMT 1
IMHO (and I'm quite happy to admit that I don't have anything like your wide ranging experience) my horse doesn't really understand any other type of relationship - simply because he's a horse and can only understand things in horse terms. But he KNOWS you're not a horse - which is why the Alpha argument doesn't work for me. A horse's initial view of a human is that he's a threat - to be run away from. It's fascinating watching and being part of a foal's first few days. And even more fascinating if you can follow the longer term results. On day 1, you can approach him and do almost anything with him - he won't normally run away. I believe that's because a foal's eyesight is pretty poor when he's first born. I spend a reasonable length of time with my foals on their first day (unless Mum is overly protective - but almost all my mares trust me enough to let me do it.) I'm there when they're born doing the midwife bit, my voice is the first thing they hear - usually before even Mum gets a say. I sit down beside them once I've pulled them out - talk to them, clear their noses and rub them down with a towel. THEN I let mare take over (if she's bothered to get up!) Once they're standing - often with my help, I handle them a bit more then leave them in peace for a few hours. On day two they see me and run! But I stand there and talk to them and they'll usually approach and accept stroking, picking up of feet etc. Over the next few days I lead them, pick their feet up some more and start to establish ground rules - they move over for a gentle push, etc. Easy peasy and the groundwork is done. BUT, on the odd occasion I've had a mare who jumps up and pushes me out of the way (and you DON'T argue with an overly protective mare!) Those foals are MUCH harder to win over - they think I'm a predator and just want to run away. And those few days can make or break a horse's view of people. The foal whose instinct (to run from the human 'predator) has not been overcome will need considerably more work in later life to gain his trust. And if the person doing the initial handling of - say - a weanling, is rough and impatient, those unfavourable memories will hang around for a long time - maybe for the life of the horse. Example: a 3 year old RID who I delivered and handled in that way. Came to backing time and I put a saddle on her in the stable, brought in my trusty mounting block, leaned over her, then put foot in stirrup. I don't normally DO backing now myself - too old and break too easily. But this filly was MINE - from birth. I put my leg over her back and sat on her - she was TOTALLY unphased. We didn't do much more with her - but everything we asked was no problem for her. By contrast, a 2 year old RID I bought from Ireland who'd had virtually NO handling - when the lorry turned up to pick him up he was standing loose in the road as they couldn't catch him. They led his friend on - he was alone - so he followed. He galloped off the lorry in pure terror on arrival. Handling went rather slowly but well - we could catch him, lead him, do his feet etc. etc. We sold him and he walked on the trailer without any trouble. He came back as a 3 year old to be backed. His handling was 1% - owners had done a great job with him. He was word perfect on the lunge, fine with the saddle, but the tension when I got on was incredible - he was terrified - I was a predator on his back. He froze. We were incredibly patient and he improved enough for owner to ride him and take him home - but at home the tension built again - he took off - owner had bad fall. He came back and he was worse than when we started - not only was a predator on his back BUT he was expecting us to throw ourselves off at any minute. We worked on him for three weeks and he improved a lot - but not enough. However, as owner wasn't going to be able to ride for quite some time he went home - to be turned out to mature. He'll come back in the spring to be started again and hopefully, the time he's had to forget the fall will enable us to start again. We had another who had 'predator on back' reaction. We'd taken her very slowly, led her forward a few strides, got off, repeated etc. But at 6 strides of walk (led) she exploded - bucking furiously. Did that twice - so changed tactics and instead of leading her forward in walk we used voice and lunge whip (not to hit her, before someone jumps!) to send her out on the lunge in a VERY fast trot - rider just hanging onto the neck strap - no reins. She RAN for 3 circles, found she hadn't outrun the 'predator' - but he wasn't doing anything - so she slowed down and we had no more problems with her. That tactic worked because she COULD take evasive action (running) so didn't feel the need to buck. We back about a dozen horses a year now - don't have time for many more - and never needed to use that tactic before - but for her, it worked. That's why I don't agree with the idea that the human can - or should be - the Alpha horse - or the other sort. I don't want a horse to treat me as it might treat another horse - and I'm very aware that a horse's NATURAL instinct is to see man (or woman as a threat. My favourite horse to work with is a horse that's never been touched - then I KNOW what I'm dealing with. I'd rather it was one day old than 4 years old - but an untouched 4 year old with no badly learned lessons can be far easier than many 4 year olds that HAVE been handled since birth - particularly if they've been allowed to call the shots.
|
|
Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,733
|
Post by Azrael on Dec 20, 2006 22:18:54 GMT 1
I am a big fan of Mark Rashid and do really like the passive leader idea. But no horse is going to be choosing the silly little human as their passive leader while they are trying to be the human's alpha leader with barging and other bad manners going on.
I realise it was pretty much my own messed up version of join up ;D except it was chasing her around a field away from the food instead of doing it properly in a round pen! Rope didn't just catch her once, it was aimed and meant to land since her response to me trying to move her away at first was 'bovvered?' closely followed by trying again to run me over and threatening to kick. She had the rope thrown at her and my wellie aimed at her backside (that missed), then she was ready to pay me some attention and stop trying to splatter me into the mud. Not something I liked doing but it was a major turning point for the little madam, and her bratty behaviour had already landed her at a cr*ppy auction once which is where I got her. I now have a horse with good manners, learnt mostly through positive reinforcement and out-stubborning her after that one-off toysoutofpram which got her attention, and she's rarely needed more than an angry-mummy voice and bit of body language since then. Before that incident I could have practiced my best body language on her all day and got a 'bovvered?' for it.
I've known more horses respond well to a gentler approach and it's what I'd prefer if horsie will cooperate with that, but have known a few who were headed for the pedigree chum factory turned around into well-behaved useful horses after they'd discovered that a smacked a*se can be on the menu if they go too far. OTOH have know horses be messed up by an inappropriate or excessive smacking so using any kind of physical punishment is something you have to be very careful doing.
|
|
|
Post by circusdancer on Dec 20, 2006 22:40:40 GMT 1
It certainly has made interesting reading. Going back to the original question, in my humble opinion, Marion didn’t appear to have a problem dealing with her horse herself. The difficulties seem to lie in the stable staff allowing him to get away with this behaviour. I don’t think this is a case of teaching the horse but rather a case of Marion training the (perhaps just one initially) members of staff how to handle him before his learned behaviour seriously injures someone. Would it be possible to recruit one who would be willing to help? I’ve got to ask whether this is ‘bolshiness’ or really down to a trust and hence respect issue? My YO’s horse rushes into the stable and often through gates. Strangely he doesn’t barge out of the stable though and I have my own theories as to why, but that’s digressing. He doesn’t do it with his owner, although he did many years ago, so when someone else leads him in, I wonder if there is an element of mistrust and panic, resulting in him charging in. To stop him doing it with other people would mean asking those, who may have to bring him in, to work with him and some aren’t prepared to risk it. My sister, for example, would happily work on it, if the horse were ours, but isn’t willing to put herself in a vulnerable situation as she’s self employed and has a small child, as well as our own animals to take care of. As a result, when either she or another livery brings him in, he believes it is acceptable to run in, because they side step in order to keep themselves safe. The first time he did it with me was shortly after we moved on the yard, he almost knocked me over because I didn’t expect it. YO hadn’t even thought to mention it because he doesn’t do it when she leads him in. By process of taking him back out and in again, numerous times, until he stopped doing it, I didn’t have another problem. Until recently, when he did again, but it has been so long since I had to bring him in and he has been allowed to get away with it with others that, sure enough, it happened again. Sorry it’s been long winded - the point I’m trying to make is, I believe that he has a memory of an incident which recurs when he doesn’t feel safe with someone and has recently picked up the nervousness of the different handlers. Isn't it possible this could be the case with Marion's horse? I don’t believe that adding a "short, sharp, shock" will improve my YO's horse by any stretch of the imagination. I’ll be bringing him in one night next week so I’ll let you know how we get on.
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 23:01:10 GMT 1
in my humble opinion, Marion didn’t appear to have a problem dealing with her horse herself. Oh yes she did. She wrote - in her first post - That DOES sound like a fear issue - probably badly banged by a gate/door. Handlers who are nervous of HIM remind HIM he is nervous of doors/gates. If handler is confident, he takes confidence from them. The only way this horse is likely to lose his fear is if he is only led by people he trusts and who are confident with him. Agree entirely - it would just give him an added reason to be nervous. Rushing through gates and INTO stables is almost always a fear issue - barging out is more of an 'I'm going - stop me!' in many (not all) horses. You may ask why I say rushing out is different to rushing in. Stable doors open outwards - a horse may bump his hip if he's too close to the door frame but he won't suffer anywhere NEAR as much as if he's taken through a door that's not fully open, catches himself and can't push the door free.
|
|
marion
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 199
|
Post by marion on Dec 20, 2006 23:07:52 GMT 1
Hi all, sorry to have started such a debate. Basically I think it is a lack of respect with my boy. He is definalty not scared but just seems to think he has a right to go out when he wants to. he can be so good but seems to catch you at that split second that you go to unbolt the door, knock you flying and run round the yard. Today was the ultimate and i would never ahve believed it had I not seen it for myself, he undid the bolt and took himself out, seems he did not even fancy breakfast first!
|
|
|
Post by circusdancer on Dec 20, 2006 23:11:57 GMT 1
I'm glad we agree on my YO's horse but the point I picked up on in Marion's initial post was this ......... When I turn him out I make him go to the back of the stable but when the yard staff turn him out he seems to get away with it. That's where I'm questioning the trust issue you see and relating the two situations. Could it just be a variation of a theme?
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 23:29:59 GMT 1
Hi all, sorry to have started such a debate. Basically I think it is a lack of respect with my boy. He is definalty not scared but just seems to think he has a right to go out when he wants to. he can be so good but seems to catch you at that split second that you go to unbolt the door, knock you flying and run round the yard. Today was the ultimate and i would never ahve believed it had I not seen it for myself, he undid the bolt and took himself out, seems he did not even fancy breakfast first! Don't apologise - we've been enjoying ourselves and hopefully you'll have pulled some thoughts on how best to deal with him. As to unbolting the door, use an old lead rope and put a snap hook on the bolt to hold it down (if it's one you CAN do that with. Out of curiousity, what breed is he? It's possible - but in view of Marion's recent update, I doubt it. In my experience, horses who barge out usually don't rush in - there are different motivations at work.
|
|
xxx
Novice Poster
Posts: 0
|
Post by xxx on Dec 20, 2006 23:44:11 GMT 1
'we've been enjoying ourselves' glad to hear you enjoy throwing insults at people. OP-do keep us updated.
|
|
|
Post by circusdancer on Dec 20, 2006 23:52:25 GMT 1
Hi all, sorry to have started such a debate. I agree with Janet, no need to apologise at all Marion. This is all food for thought. Janet, I'm not suggesting that the two situations are the same. I did mention I'd got my own theories as to why the horse in my case does what he does and my thoughts were exactly as you summed up here ................ Rushing through gates and INTO stables is almost always a fear issue - barging out is more of an 'I'm going - stop me!' in many (not all) horses. You may ask why I say rushing out is different to rushing in. Stable doors open outwards - a horse may bump his hip if he's too close to the door frame but he won't suffer anywhere NEAR as much as if he's taken through a door that's not fully open, catches himself and can't push the door free.I didn't want to go into the reasons why the horse is doing what he's doing, rather I wanted to explore the possible reasons why he feels he doesn't need to do so with his owner (in both cases here), but can't help himself when handled by anyone else. Marion has just said .......... i would never ahve believed it had I not seen it for myself, he undid the bolt and took himself out. Why couldn't Marion believe it? Because as she said in her first post, he doesn't usually behave like this with her, so I still have to come back to it being a fear/trust issue. Unfortunately, it is becoming learned behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 20, 2006 23:54:56 GMT 1
'we've been enjoying ourselves' glad to hear you enjoy throwing insults at people. Oh you VERY silly child! DO grow up!
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 21, 2006 0:14:58 GMT 1
Janet, I'm not suggesting that the two situations are the same. I did mention I'd got my own theories as to why the horse in my case does what he does and my thoughts were exactly as you summed up here ................ I didn't want to go into the reasons why the horse is doing what he's doing, rather I wanted to explore the possible reasons why he feels he doesn't need to do so with his owner (in both cases here), but can't help himself when handled by anyone else. Ah - but he does - and she has said: It IS learned behaviour and now he seems to have - deliberately or more likely accidentally - learned to cut out the middle man and open the door himself. He WANTS to go out - now! It's possible he's claustrophobic and hates being in the stable - but in the absence of other 'symptoms' (box walking, not eating etc.) I would think that unlikely. I suspect the door opening is a seperate 'problem' - I have a colt AND a stallion who will both open their top bolt if they can get at it - but neither is too fussed about leaving the stable. They just like playing with things - the colt did it a few times by accident - we put a grill on the door and solved the problem. The stallion does KNOW he can do it - he has a grill too but occasionally he'll yank THAT out with his teeth, and unbolt the door. We find him with the stable door held shut by just the bottom kick bolt - although he could easily break that just by leaning on the door. This chap wants the door to open. He might just be clever enough to have figured out the bolt is related to the door opening - and started playing with it - or it could be purely accidental - but he still barged out - which would indicate that it doesn't matter who opens the door. However, having had a positive result from playing with the door bolt he will try again - so he either needs a horseproof bolt or a clip on it to prevent him doing it again.
|
|
|
Post by circusdancer on Dec 21, 2006 0:56:59 GMT 1
We're both picking up on the bits of Marion's comments that we feel need to prove a point and I think we're just going round in circles now. After all, how many posts has Marion made in comparison to the rest of us? It's pretty much assumption on all our parts isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by janetgeorge on Dec 21, 2006 2:16:37 GMT 1
We're both picking up on the bits of Marion's comments that we feel need to prove a point and I think we're just going round in circles now. After all, how many posts has Marion made in comparison to the rest of us? It's pretty much assumption on all our parts isn't it? I don't think I was But of course it HAS to be pretty much assumption from a distance (and even sometimes from close up.) You handle a horse, you get to know his problems or issues, you work out a possible explanation which makes sense and hope for the best. Unfortunately, their communication is not always as clearcut as we'd like. I owned a stallion for a short time who had an absolute hatred of other male horses which I discovered under circumstances that might have easily led to the death of an unfortunate gelding and myself. I put it down to the fact that his former owners (who'd had him for 5 years) kept him in a 'compound' (stable and yard) totally isolated from other horses - including another stallion who was 'working'. He couldn't SEE another horse - although he could smell and hear them. The owners were petrified of him - used to do things like shove a bowl of feed under his nose so they could buckle his headcollar on while he was distracted. It was a plausible explanation. Then I met the former owner of his sire. She told me that HE was exactly the same - positively dicey to lead past a stable with another male horse in it - he'd reverse into the stable door and try to kick his way in - exactly as my horse did! So - was it lack of socialisation - or was it a genetic flaw in his temperament. Could have been either - but I suspect it was both! I found out later my horse had always been a handful, had been at a stud where they kept a lot of stallions and were allegedly rather proud of their 'high spirits' - then he went to the scared owners. Maybe if he'd been better handled as a young stallion the genetic tendency could have been overcome. I didn't keep him. On a mixed yard, I just couldn't risk it. He went to a very experienced stallion man who instilled some discipline - but he couldn't be trusted and he was put down shortly afterwards as he proved to be borderline infertile.
|
|
|
Post by laura13 on Dec 21, 2006 10:54:27 GMT 1
Fit one of those stall chains so that when you open the door he still can't come out. Then I suppose it is back to the groundwork and respect stuff. Good luck xx Mine BARGES and goes straight through the chain! our mares at this stage,she barges,weve learnt to putthe headcollar on over the door,efore you open it then tie her up,if you dont shes out in a flash and galloping around!
|
|