Barging out of stable

[chitori]

Otto is pretty identical in build and from your posts his mindset to Tommy when I got him, yet I managed to get Tom not to charge the door using other methods:) It's not impossible! It's jsut a matter of time, janetgeorge is right in that respect, often these things come down to time and money and often people simply cant afford to do things the absolute 100% best way. But you can bet your cotton socks if an RA or someone knowledgeable had had Otto, chances are he wouldnt have needed to be hit.
Believe you me I know that scariness of the heavy cob hurtling at a door and a clap of the hands or loud noise + eye contact + some movement similar to a starjump are pretty damn effective too.

[Ryan&Dizzy]

im sorry xxx i was just trying to state my opinion /experiences and what i had based them upon i didnt ask anybody to analyse myself or my horse. and my point was that the methods that have been put up by other people would not have been appopriate for my particular horse when we brought him as he just wouldnt move back from you trying to get him to move to the back etc...

[HeatherL*]

otto said:

he also isnt scared of anything...i no you will think im lying to make myself sound better..but this horse is a bold as brass you could stand at his door with plastic bags and buckets and bang and shout as much as you liked and he would just look and go...yer!

Sophie I have to admit to having a little chuckle here as reading your previous posts about otto I was trying to think of something suitable to convince otto to be sent to the back of the stable, thats when I remembered him knocking the whole stable wall down to get out! I think otto may be just a little bit special after all ;D So can I get back to you on the chosen item to 'send otto away' tiger suit and a loud roar maybe lol!

[Ryan&Dizzy]

i was thinking that prehaps a cow would work! the only thing i have ever known my pony to have a spooky moment at!

[HeatherL*]

ROFL Sophie!! Didn't think of a cow, not very convenient from a storage point of view though ;D

[misty]

I agree otto that a lot of horses on here seem to be a bite like clones. And who ever suggested 'hitting disabled humans' or horses for that matter.

It appears that some of us do not have the power to to control our horses, what ever their nature (or are we suggesting that all horses are of the same temperament?) by the same method as others. If you even suggest showing a stick, or piece of blue pipe to a horse then you must be hitting it hard enough to hurt. On the scale of things my horses are nothing special, except to me and o/h but they have manners. Manners have to be learnt, some horses learn easy, for some it is harder, some don't want to learn. For this reason a 'one method suits all' doesn't work.

[xxx]

Yes, on the ground I firmly believe that a hand is all that should be used.
Otto-and I was responding as I do not think this is a suitable method, my opinion. No sort of analysis, just another viewpoint there.

OP- I teach all of mine to have thier heads behind the door when their feed buckets are dropped in, the new ones take only5-10mins to catch on, they simply don't get their dinner until they do.
What is he like to lead into his stable?
I would be inclined to do as you are going to, and take time to work through it. I think you may find that with only you handling him for a few days he might well improve. LEt us know how you get on?

[janetgeorge]

hl said:

misty with regards to OPs problem the same result could be achieved in a very short amount of time using the method described by annabelle h. No blue pipes, and nobody getting hurt. Surely you would have to either open the door or lean over it to hit the horse in the chest with the blue pipe referred to in a previous post. Would that not have more risk of getting hurt than having the door securely locked and by sending the horse to the back of the stable as annabelle is suggesting.

It certainly would work with some horses - but some bargers DON'T barge until the door is opened. So if you teach them to step back from the door from outside - and you then open the door - WHOOSH - they're over the top of you and out!

I want THAT sort of horse to know that he stands back when I enter the stable - not when I wave plastic bags at him from outside! They'll quickly work out that's no problem to them. I have a loony rescue Foxhound x Lab who thinks it's fun to leap up at the stable door and bark at the horse inside (and yes, she knows it's not allowed and doesn't do it when I'm close enough to dissuade her.)

The first time she does it to a new horse, it jumps back; the second time, it looks perplexed. The third time, horse either ignores her or tries to bite her - depending on its nature. Same with plastic bags etc.

There are some great trainers and horsemen and women out there that do not employ violence of any sort in their training.

I wouldn't presume to call myself a great trainer - although I've known and worked with a few that deserved the title - but my clients recommend me to their friends. I DO, however, object strongly to the implication that I use 'violence'. How the hell is a smack on the chest with something that hurts considerably less than a jumping/racing whip 'violence'.

I do not believe in ever hitting a horse with anything other then the palm of your hand when on the ground,

Bully for you - if you hit hard enough with your hand it would probably hurt as much as the plastic pipe when I use it. I can't smack a horse with my right hand as it's riddled with arthritis - it damn well hurts ME too much. And - apart from the pain - I prefer not to hit a horse with either hand. I want to be able to put my hands anywhere on a horse without it shying away. If I raise a hand to put ointment in an eye, for example, the horse must trust my hand. I won't smack a horse who tries to nip me with my hand for that reason - I try to block it with an elbow.

im really sorry but i do think there are a few people on this site that live in a fairy tale land where all horses must be mega responsive and do as told when told.

That is certainly the impression given. I stress again that the use of a piece of pipe as a 're-inforcement' to voice/body language etc is NOT a tool I employ often - nor would I recommend it for all (or even many) horse problems. I have around 45 horses here; about a dozen horses in work at any one time - some long-term, some short stay, plus colts, stallions, mares and followers. In the past 12 months, two have required one or two reminders with the plastic pipe. One was the mare I referred to earlier, the other a very large colt who was on restricted exercise due to a suspect hock and got 'above himself' - as in rearing and striking with his front legs and coming at you with his teeth when being led out. With the mare we used it once - although had it handy for a few more days just in case. The colt felt it 2 or 3 times, although I carried it when leading him until he was able to resume normal exercise - rather that than employ a Chifney and risk damaging his mouth - OR getting a hoof in the face. He can now be led anywhere in a headcollar, even with other horses, without rearing, biting, or doing anything colt-like. As he's going to end up at LEAST 17 hh, he has to be well-mannered or he becomes a rather nice gelding!

[rosemaryhannah]

The arguement was that you needed to hit stupid horses harder. That you needed to shout at stupid humans.

Use it hard or use it soft - depending on the horse and how THICK he is (bit like people really - some you just have to say it quietly - others you have to shout at.)

I don't think either helps - and I speak as a professional teacher of humans, with learning disabled children. Shouting does not help, hitting does not help. Education does help. It is actually possible to re educate horses, and to educate people.

I am not arguing that horses should barge - mine don't. I am arguing you can train them without using blue pipe on them. Because you can. The suggestion that some are stupid and need hit harder was a favourite one with some Victorian educators, but I thought Charles Dickens had shown the flly of it. Apparently not.

[janetgeorge]

rosemaryhannah said:

Use it hard or use it soft - depending on the horse and how THICK he is (bit like people really - some you just have to say it quietly - others you have to shout at.)

I don't think either helps - and I speak as a professional teacher of humans, with learning disabled children. Shouting does not help, hitting does not help. Education does help. It is actually possible to re educate horses, and to educate people.

I think you took me too literally there. The point I was TRYING to make (obviously rather badly) is that different horses need different approaches. A horse that has spent years using his strength against his owners/handlers DOES need a short, sharp lesson in respect. You can't have a rational discussion in which you say: "Listen old man, if you keep kicking, biting and mowing down your owner she's going to send you off to an unwarranted sale from where you might end up in a refrigerated lorry on a hook. So DO be a good chap and live a life of luxury instead."

If a horse is nervous and ignorant, of COURSE you don't hit him or shout at him. But if he's spent years ignoring 'nice' instructions, you DO need to get his attention so you can START retraining him.

[chitori]

janetgeorge said:

I think you took me too literally there. The point I was TRYING to make (obviously rather badly) is that different horses need different approaches. A horse that has spent years using his strength against his owners/handlers DOES need a short, sharp lesson in respect. You can't have a rational discussion in which you say: "Listen old man, if you keep kicking, biting and mowing down your owner she's going to send you off to an unwarranted sale from where you might end up in a refrigerated lorry on a hook. So DO be a good chap and live a life of luxury instead."

If a horse is nervous and ignorant, of COURSE you don't hit him or shout at him. But if he's spent years ignoring 'nice' instructions, you DO need to get his attention so you can START retraining him.

Now if that is the way you do things over time and you are successful and the horse isn't forever terrified of blue pipe forever after, because there will be negative associations involved with being poked/tapped/slapped/prodded with blue pipe then all respect to you.

janetgeorge said:

A horse that has spent years using his strength against his owners/handlers DOES need a short, sharp lesson in respect.

That's the bit I disagree with again, it doesn't need to be short/sharp you can acheive the same results in a similar length of time using different methods. With regards to it depends on the horse, true you will get a few who take an extra week to think, hey, that's what she wants me to do! All it takes is that initial moment of 'ahhhh she seems to be trying to talk to me'. With regards to Toms sensitivity, it took me a good two or three weeks to get his attention and catch him, then another few weeks before he was fairly safe to handle and that was the point he bolted with my friend on the leadrope and we had another, urm, that isn't acceptable behaviour mate to work on.

Sadly if it comes down to money, time is often a luxury.

[Azrael]

I spent about 2 months discussing things the nice way with one bargey monster (backing up, making her do hard work for barging etc) I don't think she ever saw me as more than a bit inconvenient. She did improve but nowhere near as much as she did after she got a b*llocking for trying to run me over to get at food. Most of it was throwing my toys out of the pram and chasing her around the field with a lead rope, only actually made contact once, but after that she decided I was worth listening to. Sometimes when they've spent years learning they can ignore the stupid little humans they need a reminder that we aren't that easy to ignore before they are willing to discuss things nicely. I'm not saying most horses need that kind of treatment, but there are a few that do and what they'd get for trying to barge another horse in that way would be a lot more painful than what I'd aim at them for doing it, and far better than them hurting people and ending up at the pedigree chum factory.

[rosemaryhannah]

The thing is, that by and large, other horses teach by constantly moving subordinate ones without much or any violence - and we can teach that way too. It does not actually take violence to get even the bolshie ones to sit up and listen. It takes ground work.

[janetgeorge]

rosemaryhannah said:

The thing is, that by and large, other horses teach by constantly moving subordinate ones without much or any violence - and we can teach that way too. It does not actually take violence to get even the bolshie ones to sit up and listen. It takes ground work.

Oh sorry - but that was another coffee over screen moment! Yes, my Alpha mares can quietly intimidate others into moving away from what Alpha mare wants - but that's only after they're TAUGHT the others by a few (or more) damn good bites or a couple of double-barrelling sessions!

I had two mares with foals who knew each other well and got on, food always well spaced out and spare piles. One day the subordinate mare decided to try and become top dog. Alpha mare needed a total of 18 stitches in her "v*$"a". And how many horses end up with a broken leg in the field because they didn't get out of the way fast enough??

In the real world, the strongest and toughest horse is 'top dog' - same with any pack/herd animal. And they often use considerable violence to establish their position.

Thankfully we don't have to compete on strength terms - we'd lose. But we DO need to occasionally draw a boundary line in terms a horse understands! 9 out of 10 horses who come to me for re-schooling don't (initially) know there IS a boundary.


ETA How very wierd - seems a filter doesn't like THAT word - translates to girlie bits.

[Azrael]

The thing is, that by and large, other horses teach by constantly moving subordinate ones without much or any violence - and we can teach that way too.

And what does the dominant horse do if one day the subordinate one decides it's going to barge the dominant horse or otherwise give it the equine equivalent of 'the finger' instead of moving when given the best 'evils'.