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Post by jill on Dec 18, 2006 19:12:31 GMT 1
It is really difficult to be presriptive when you can only read about what is going on - I guess most of us when faced with an actual situation would do a whole variety of things based on how sensitive the horse is, how frightened, how on another planet and how much room or time we have. Many of the thoughts on here relate to the ideal situation - pleasant but uneducated horse, a few days in which to teach it, lots of time available to do just that, and quite rightly so. But in the real world you have to deal with what you've got and the wider your range of tools you have available - blue plastic pipe included - the better your chance of achieving safety for handlers and a happy horse who knows what is what. I personally wouldn't rule anything out provided I could use it without inflicting pain or causing fear and could use it without emotion - that is a large part of the key.
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Post by annabelle h on Dec 19, 2006 16:22:00 GMT 1
Marion, hope you have some ideas from the posts above. It can be a very frustrating and hazardous problem, and I think you are doing the right thing by taking him in and out yourself for a while. Consistency is the only way and if the yard staff allow him to barge out, he's only going to do it more!
Why he does it is hard to tell. My guess is that it's not to do with owls and not really to do with his position in the herd (although indirectly, the reorganisation of the herd may have encouraged him to test the boundaries more with you). It's most likely that he knows that good things (grass, friends etc) are outside the stable so he wants out as fast as possible, or that he's had a fright going through a doorway. With really bad bargers, that will shove open the door to get out, I've found it's usually the former. The scared ones tend not to rush until they are part way through the door already.
First thing might be to make his stable more inviting, maybe some toys or branches to nibble on, so he has more of a reason to stay put. (In an ideal world you'd leave him out all the time but presumably at your yard that's not an option?)
Secondly, practise going to the stable door and having him move to the back of the stable. You could clicker train this given time. Otherwise, you need something that he finds a little scary, like a flag, hanky/plastic bag on a stick, sometimes a longline is enough.
When you go to the door (not unlocking it yet), give your cue ("go back" or whatever you prefer) and look him in the eye, and if he doesn't go back, go crazy with your chosen implement, waving it around (making yourself "big") and making lots of noise - I wouldn't shout or hit him with it, but you can bang the door with it if necessary. As soon as he makes a move to the back of the box, stop immediately (v important!). Take your eye off his and tell him good boy. Wait and see what he does next. If he moves a single foot towards the front of the stable, go crazy again and stop when he moves backwards.
Once he has moved to the back successfully, or even part way, turn and walk away from the stable and let him have a think (it's ok for him to come forward now, as you're not giving the cue).
Then come back in 10 minutes and do it again - and again etc etc! As he gets better at going to the back when you tell him, you can start fiddling with the bolt on the door and then work up to unbolting the door. Once you're confident you can keep him at the back of the stable with your body language etc, you can open the door, and open it a little wider each time until you can stand with it open and he will stay at the back of the stable.
Be careful that you have an assistant with you when you start opening the door, if you want to go in and put his headcollar on it's helpful not to have to turn your back on him to bolt the door, as he's liable to see that as an invitation! Also when you're coming out of the stable, send him to the back and keep facing him until you get to the door, so he knows he's meant to stay put. Training the stable staff is a whole different matter .. though if they understand that it's a kind of "game" they sometimes will take to it.
You need to project quite a lot of energy to persuade a horse like this to move back, if you have trouble, see if you can get an RA or a student from here to help you.
I can totally understand people wanting to hit a horse with something or shout at it in these circumstances, but the ability to control the horse from outside the stable tends to go deeper - and works very quickly too, as long as you are very consistent.
If he does manage to barge out, see if you can find a way to make this option hard work or boring - if the ground allows it, you could turn him around and around on the spot, which he'll soon find pretty boring. The main thing is not to go "oh well, he's out now, we may as well put him in the field" which gives him a great reward for barging out!
Also I'd practise backing him in and out of the stable door to check if he is worried about it - if so, some quiet slow work leading in and out of the stable, with lots of praise and clear boundaries, should help.
Longer term, definitely do the Perfect Manners exercises and get an RA or Monty qualified person out if you possibly can.
Good luck and be patient, I know it's an infuriating habit!
Annabelle
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Post by june on Dec 19, 2006 17:39:26 GMT 1
Great advice from Annabelle. Have to agree with Yann. Hitting is hitting and pain is pain. What happens if the blue pipe doesn't work? Do you hit him harder?
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iammizz
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Post by iammizz on Dec 19, 2006 18:28:14 GMT 1
APPLAUSE...well put hun..i got ya..x
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Dec 19, 2006 19:06:51 GMT 1
Use it hard or use it soft - depending on the horse and how THICK he is (bit like people really - some you just have to say it quietly - others you have to shout at.) I rarely shout at anyone human, or any horses I have worked with unless I can see my life flashing before my eyes and in that case it's usually out of shock. I don't think it's down to how thick the horse or human is. I think it's a lot more down to how much respect he thinks he owes you or the human race. Granted he may have been to many other owners who have failed and you may be charged with the case of 'fixing' him. But my betting would be you could acheive the same results minus the plastic pipe and shouting, it would take a little more time but I'm pretty sure the benefits would be forthcoming. Talking of which Marion, do you have direct turnout from your stable to a school or round pen? Or do you have to lead from stable to school? If you could turn him directly out and work with him away from the barging situation at first that might take a bit of stress of the situation. He wont be thinking a....ha there is my escape 'Charge!!' and you wont be fretting about a horse coming towards you at speed.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 19, 2006 20:12:49 GMT 1
Granted he may have been to many other owners who have failed and you may be charged with the case of 'fixing' him. But my betting would be you could acheive the same results minus the plastic pipe and shouting, it would take a little more time but I'm pretty sure the benefits would be forthcoming. It's a nice theory - and if you have unlimited time (or more to the point, your client has unlimited money) you may be right. I should stress that the vast majority of horses don't require 'extreme' measures - but if a horse has been mucked around thoroughly (by owners AND other trainers) it could cost the client a fortune to get a result (and many can't afford it.) One example we had here last year - a Welsh cob mare of 9) came from another yard who used - shall we say - non-traditional methods. The mare had been there for 9 weeks - cost the owners over £1,000 in 'training' fees - and they hadn't managed to get her lunging, let alone sat on her! Owner was seriously considering sending her to an unwarranted sale - she just couldn't afford to spend huge sums on ineffective training. We DID discuss the mare's behaviour with her in firm tones! Less than 2 weeks later we were able to show the owner a horse whose manners in the stable were near perfect, who lunged well and responded to all voice commands, and was being ridden calmly with no problems. A week later the owner rode her and she went home. I just got a Christmas Card from the owner - the mare is still going very well and she is delighted with her. A good result for the owner - and a good result for the mare who has a good home where she is likely to stay!
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 19, 2006 21:05:19 GMT 1
yes. but does the end justify the means?
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Post by misty on Dec 19, 2006 21:08:52 GMT 1
Thank you again janetgeorge for some commonsense.
If the mean accounts for nobody getting hurt and a better mannered animal then that's a good end.
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blueali
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water horse vs. land horse
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Post by blueali on Dec 19, 2006 21:28:35 GMT 1
I've only just read this thread and my initial take was completely different. I thought horse is claustrophobic, desperate to get out of the dark enclosed space. The is dependant on the fact that I took it that once out he was good to lead and not bargy. Blue has this problem, well doesn't barge out, but if I shut her in a stable for just an hour or two, she is unhappy and desperate to get out, then she won't want to go in again for days. This is worse in the winter and she's not scared of the stable as she has access to it and the field all day and spends quite a lot of time inside.
My point is WHY is he doing it? Is the stable dark or small? Is he bored in there?
On the other hand if he's being bad mannered I would be really tough with him, don't think I'd resort to pipes or anything. Groundwork is obviously what is needed. If he broke a chain across the door what about a wooden bar? Then you could go in, restrain him as necessary, maybe use a bridle, certainly use a lunge line or similar.
Annabelle's advice is good and I second it
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HeatherL*
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Post by HeatherL* on Dec 19, 2006 21:41:52 GMT 1
Thank you again janetgeorge for some commonsense. If the mean accounts for nobody getting hurt and a better mannered animal then that's a good end. misty with regards to OPs problem the same result could be achieved in a very short amount of time using the method described by annabelle h. No blue pipes, and nobody getting hurt. Surely you would have to either open the door or lean over it to hit the horse in the chest with the blue pipe referred to in a previous post. Would that not have more risk of getting hurt than having the door securely locked and by sending the horse to the back of the stable as annabelle is suggesting. O.K. so she is saying that you should leave the horse for 10 minutes before returning and then keep repeating it and I accept that is going to take longer than just hitting it with a pipe or whatever but surely to spend a weekend sorting this problem out for the long term without the need to hit the horse with anything can't be that much of an inconvenience? So whilst I commend janetgeorge for obviously doing some excellent work with the horse she describes. The bad trainers she also describes using the "non-traditional methods" were just that maybe, bad trainers regardless of what methods they were using. There are after all rip off merchants using all kinds of titles these days so please don't tar all non-traditional methods and trainers with the same brush. There are some great trainers and horsemen and women out there that do not employ violence of any sort in their training.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Dec 19, 2006 21:46:00 GMT 1
Astonishingly, I find even the thickest horses can be taught to behave in a safe and respectful way without hurting them.
A bit like people really .... I have never yet heard that hitting learning disabled humans was more effective than teaching them.
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Dec 19, 2006 21:46:51 GMT 1
im really sorry but i do think there are a few people on this site that live in a fairy tale land where all horses must be mega responsive and do as told when told.
My horse (as im sure people are begining to learn) can be a real handfull on the ground. when we brought him he had a pretty major barging problem, the first day we had him he came straight over me stood on me then refused to be caught. as soon as he herd the bolt slide across he would litterally throw himself at the door.
the problem wasnt when i was leading him in and out the door..he was fine if i mannaged to get in to put a head collar on but to be fair we didnt get to that point very often when we first got him and 16hh of fat cob hurteling through the air is pretty scary! im not ashamed to say that when we first got him we used to go into the stable with a schooling whip and when he came for the door said 'back' sternly and when he didnt he got a smack on the chest. this was enough for him to pause for long enoughfor me to get through the door and stopped a very dangerous situation developing.
of corse after we had had him for longer we did more ground work with him but at the time this was a 'fix' to stop a dangerous situation.
and i will admit that even now he will try to barge but nowhere near as violently as he did. i have to keep an eye on him. i say back he backs up but can be a bogger for then trying to run forwards again when the bolt is opened... i dont think i true barger will ever loose the urge to.
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 19, 2006 21:49:40 GMT 1
A smack on the chest with a schooling whip is pretty severe! I do not believe in ever hitting a horse with anything other then the palm of your hand when on the ground, and you say it worked, fine, but I do not believe the end justifies the means.
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Dec 19, 2006 21:59:34 GMT 1
if you would like to come and visit my horse when he is having a 'bad day' and show me how you would intend to get your palm near him you are more than welcome. im not saying i would do the same with every horse but Otto is a bit of a 'special lad' bless him, he had been allowed to do as he pleased untill i got him. he also isnt scared of anything...i no you will think im lying to make myself sound better..but this horse is a bold as brass you could stand at his door with plastic bags and buckets and bang and shout as much as you liked and he would just look and go...yer!
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 19, 2006 22:01:49 GMT 1
funny how people always say their horse is a special case whilst saying they wouldn't do it with other horses. My horses you can bang plastic and bags and buckets and they're not bothered either, what's you point? Smacking a horse with a schooling whip is not acceptable in my book.
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