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Post by fin on Dec 18, 2006 1:55:41 GMT 1
I wouldn't endorse plastic pipe either. It's a bit of a crude method of sorting a problem.
My ned was much the same. We didn't have a stable for a year, though, but it was difficult getting through a gate if he was on the other side--so we taught him to back up. We used a dually, and also clicker trained him, working up to getting him to reverse from a hand gesture and verbal cue. We also taught him to wait on a different gesture.
Interestingly he now doesn't barge out of the stable: he will wait if asked, and go backwards to let you in.
If we'd hit him he'd have either lurked terrified at the back of the stable or left the stable at a mad gallop so we didn't have chance to hurt him, and without any doubt--JJ being JJ--he would have found some way of hurting us back.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 18, 2006 1:58:01 GMT 1
plastic pipes are not a tool I would want used in this situation. My suggestion is not for use in all scenarios but it worked in my case without the horse getting upset. It does depend on if your horse is lieable to go right through the lunge line. You are basically whacking a horse with a great lump of plastic, ever been hit with one? hard as you suggested? Where did I suggest it was used hard? And even if it WAS used hard, it still has limited potential for inflicting real pain or damage. And yes, I HAVE tested it - hurts FAR less than a jumping whip - and far less than being squashed between a large lump of a horse and a steel gatepost! A serious barger will not be stopped by a lunge line across its chest - hell - a serious barger won't be stopped by the bolt done up on a stable door! I've got a yearing ID colt (already 15.3hh) who will walk through any closed stable door if he wants to leave (he has to have a grill on the door to prevent him getting his head over.) But he'll stand back politely while I go in and out of the box - and he didn't need the plastic pipe because he was taught early to have manners (he just doesn't know his own strength.) And yes, elbow in the chest can work - but at the point where you're close enough to employ it, the horse only needs one more step to put you flat on your back.
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Post by hazelhorse on Dec 18, 2006 5:42:47 GMT 1
Having worked with several horses who have come with this issue, I have to say that thinking about why the horse is being bargey and teaching verbal and non-verbal commands to move back and wait, and repetition and patience are the way to go.
As a lot of previous posters have said, there can be many reasons for his behaviour, and it sounds as if you are starting to get a good idea of why this may be happening which is essential. If you don't already have Perfect Manners, I would suggest you ask for one for Christmas, or better still treat yourself. Working on the ground through those exercises is the best way to establish a good relationship with your horse, and is fun too, on these dark cold horrid days when sometimes riding isn't too appealing! With bargers, I have always found that as well as the groundwork in general, learning the words 'back' and 'wait' very helpful. An easy way to help the moving back from the door and learning the word is when going in with feed or haynet. Quite simply the horse doesn't get their food until they have stepped back, initially with a little push accompanying the word and then just firmly using the word. About three visits usually has it! Then afterwards, don't enter the stable EVER without the horse stepping back first. Teach wait when leading or entering the stable, by halting the horse, and in the instant he is still and attentive say wait, use it a few times, whilst he is already still, and give praise. He will start to associate the word with the action pretty quickly.
This has worked for me with a Shire who barged every time the door was open and sometimes when it wasn't! A nervy TB who was terrified of the opening (if this is your issue check out the exercises in the book to use out of the stable over narrow gaps too). A couple of heavy cobs, and three ponies, one of which isn't led anywhere by the owner, as she bolts off with her every time.
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Post by Pauline on Dec 18, 2006 9:01:43 GMT 1
Marian
My little Newforest mare use to do that.
we just spent time working her from the ground teaching her word commands.
I also had a horse in for treatment that would do that and then drag you around the yard. Ground work is the answer.
Many be someone could come and give you a hand
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Post by jill on Dec 18, 2006 9:18:51 GMT 1
I can actually sympathise with the plastic pipe to some extent. Before you all throw your hands in the air, that is as a temporary emergency measure and not as a long term solution. I have a retirement livery who is a shire cross and has spent most of his 20 years getting what he wants by simply walking through people or horses and doing an impression of a brick sh*t house when you try to move him off the spot. It has always worked for him, and changing him has been an uphill struggle. For the few days that he is learning to move his feet it is dangerous to have him walk through you, either in the field to get to the hay, or in the stable, so I had to do a very quick "Whoops big lad, you made the wrong choice" session with a rope onto his rug. Made a hell of a noise and he MAY have just felt it, but to an onlooker it would have looked as though I was thrashing him - but it was always his choice to take it on. Within a couple of times he was learning to make a more sensible choice and stay out of my space, but that is what it took. Longer term it is about moving the feet and establishing boundaries though.
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Post by ceiron on Dec 18, 2006 9:30:39 GMT 1
hitting a person and a horse with a plastic pipe is two very different things
a horse is a lot tougher then a person and so the overall effect is a lot less
as a stop gap measure it would be effective
a lot safer then a lunge line
and the lesser of two evils, id rather hit a horse causing no damage but shock then have a horse that can potentially kill someone, all it takes is to be barged, fall over and take a hoof to the body and your in trouble
if the pipe prevents this then it can be used as a tool leading up to verbal commands etc ...
and thus solving the actual problem in the least dangerosu way possible
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 18, 2006 10:00:53 GMT 1
I can actually sympathise with the plastic pipe to some extent. Before you all throw your hands in the air, that is as a temporary emergency measure and not as a long term solution. I have a retirement livery who is a shire cross and has spent most of his 20 years getting what he wants by simply walking through people or horses and doing an impression of a brick sh*t house when you try to move him off the spot. It has always worked for him, and changing him has been an uphill struggle. For the few days that he is learning to move his feet it is dangerous to have him walk through you, either in the field to get to the hay, or in the stable, so I had to do a very quick "Whoops big lad, you made the wrong choice" session with a rope onto his rug. Made a hell of a noise and he MAY have just felt it, but to an onlooker it would have looked as though I was thrashing him - but it was always his choice to take it on. Within a couple of times he was learning to make a more sensible choice and stay out of my space, but that is what it took. Longer term it is about moving the feet and establishing boundaries though. Exactly! Marion needed an URGENT solution to a potentially dangerous problem. Of COURSE the horse needs a lot of ground training, and working through its issues - whatever they are. Hard to do when you're flat on your back and horse is half-way down the field.
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Post by misty on Dec 18, 2006 12:56:33 GMT 1
Agree with both janetgeorge & rosemary. We had been warned that our new horse barged out of the stable with a previous owner and might try it on with us. she did. when she did i walked her in and out of the stable and backed her up. she still tried it a bit so told her back and touched her with a carrot stick on her chest, between her legs. stern voice when she disobeyed soft voice and stroking when she was good. in two days can get on skipping out, filling nets, water etc with her and rosie's doors open. I don't have time to faff about. she will now wee in the school when let out with rosie!
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Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Azrael on Dec 18, 2006 13:24:36 GMT 1
I agree with longer term doing some training work, but sometimes as an urgent solution to a barging little monster that's only doing it because they can not though fear or whatever the plastic pipe type of approach can make them think again about running people over. I did some clicker training with my younger one who barged because she just saw the open door as an invitation to come out and didn't know she should stay in and wait.
My other one OTOH made it to 5 years old having never learnt any manners, knew she was bigger and stronger than the stupid humans and thought it was fine to run people over whenever she wanted to get somewhere. Even after lots of patient teaching of manners she still tried to barge sometimes. Eventually madam made the mistake of trying it when I was carrying a bucket of water into her stable and wasn't in the best mood anyway and she ended up having the bucket and the water thrown at her. Not my best idea ever because I had to clean up soggy horse and the mess but she didn't try running me over again for a while ;D I wouldn't want to go with the smacked a*se approach with every horse but sometimes until they learn there's consequences for running people over it's difficult to get them out of it.
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Post by Yann on Dec 18, 2006 13:40:08 GMT 1
Hitting is hitting and pain is pain and IMHO we should always be looking for better ways to deal with situations All that's doing is addressing the symptoms rather than the cause anyway. Our little loan pony used to charge the door when the fancy took her, and even an 11.3 littlie can't be stopped once they decide they're off ;D Anticipating the situation and asking her to yield using visual pressure before opening the door really helped, along with all the usual groundwork. Lots of good suggestions here
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jo
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Post by jo on Dec 18, 2006 17:32:14 GMT 1
Agree with Janetgeorge as to the theory of using a plastic pipe. But really, it wouldn't matter to me what it was, whether it was a stick, whip or noisy plastic bag! The tool wouldn't be the problem - it is the intention of the person that uses it?
IMHO any horse has to learn how to be safe and confident around people. This horse sounds to me unlikely to care whether you are there or not! Make it important to you that the horse steps politely away when you ask. Do it over the stable door to begin with - use body language, sure, but if your horse is either over confident with you or is not thinking about you then where do you go from there? You have to back it up with something...use a stick, flag whatever it takes and work your way from there to asking more politely. Then you can be 'loading and unloading' your horse into it's stable for practice. Every time he goes in or out is a training exercise. Be careful what you teach, someone has taught him this is acceptable!!
Boundaries! Where are your boundaries? I would like to see how your horse is led...this would be a telltale of where you have your boundary with this horse. Does he stand when you ask and stop, start when you ask? If not, go back to those basics of leading, controlling horses feet.
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iammizz
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U CAN KISS IT XX
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Post by iammizz on Dec 18, 2006 17:51:44 GMT 1
i kinda get the pipe thing,as long as its not being used in an abusive way why wouldnt it b helpfull in a situation,ur making contact without getting too close,ppl on here use whips as aids.. I kinda get ya point hun..
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xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 18, 2006 17:52:21 GMT 1
Damn it.....how come I never get to advocate certain things but anyone else does. 'USE the pipe - on his chest. Makes a nice loud noise and will sting without marking or cutting him' -suggesting you use it hard.. interesting how suddenly a horse is tougher than a human etc. when it suits some people.
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iammizz
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U CAN KISS IT XX
Posts: 2,680
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Post by iammizz on Dec 18, 2006 17:55:38 GMT 1
aimed at? b more specific im lost...YAWN.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 18, 2006 18:53:59 GMT 1
Damn it.....how come I never get to advocate certain things but anyone else does. 'USE the pipe - on his chest. Makes a nice loud noise and will sting without marking or cutting him' -suggesting you use it hard.. interesting how suddenly a horse is tougher than a human etc. when it suits some people. Use it hard or use it soft - depending on the horse and how THICK he is (bit like people really - some you just have to say it quietly - others you have to shout at.) Even used as hard as you can it would still inflict a minute amount of pain compared to a good kick - or a horse standing on your chest. But the reason for using the plastic pipe is that because it's wider diameter than a whip, and 'bouncy', it makes a nice noise with a relatively soft tap - or a bigger noise and absolutely minimal damage if you hit as hard as you can - which you shouldn't need or want to do except with the most extreme case whose been knocking people out of its way for years. And perhaps when you've been training horses for more than 40 years you will have the confidence to advocate things too - some people will disagree - but most of the horses that come into my stables come because their owners have failed - we succeed! I try to use sympathetic, patient, thoughtful methods - but when a horse has been thoroughly screwed up by months/years of ineffectual handling, SOMETIMES the first thing you have to do is make sure its listening. I would far rather not HAVE to shout - and with my home-bred horses we aim to teach them manners from the day they're born - they're so much more receptive when they know nothing. Then they just need regular quiet refresher courses. Today it was 4 weanlings having a reminder about being polite with leg lifting, before the farrier comes on Wednesday These foals already weigh over 300 kg - so a bit big to wrestle with Fortunately, because they were started so young and have had regular practice with both me and the farrier, it only took a few minutes with each one to ensure they would lift their legs up, let them be held up, brought forward etc. without too much trouble. But a four year old whose never had his feet picked up would be rather a bigger job!! And for that 4 year old, I'd use the plastic pipe too - not to hit him, but to rub up and down his legs to get them used to being touched - without the risk of me getting a foot in the head or a broken arm. Only when he's realised that having his legs touched doesn't hurt and is nothing to be frightened of, do I want my head or arm that close!! Useful stuff, plastic pipe!
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