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Post by Moderators on Jul 10, 2007 11:57:11 GMT 1
Jackie JA Taylor - the forum is delighted that you are taking the time to answer members' questions.
I hope that posters will use continue to use this thread appropriately. The vast majority are! Thank you again!
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 10, 2007 12:13:31 GMT 1
To numerous Jenny's: When you sit down and work out the amounts in a given daily dose for eg a 500kg horse, the partial analysis we are given of F4F is roughly comparable to TopSpec original balancer, or their comprehensive supplement in terms of vits and mins - except the F4F contains no selenium and the TS supplement has no protein base.
The Top Spec products tend to have higher biotin and vitamin A and E, whereas the F4F has higher C, and the TS products have much higher levels of macrominerals like calcium and phosphorus. Levels of lysine are generally higher in TS products, but methionine in F4F.
Quite how the background levels of the other amino acids compare I don't know - the original TS balancer is soya based like F4F so I would imagine would be similar. The AntiLam has a fibre base, so would be lower in protein (which the exception of lysine and the hoof-specific methionine which have been boosted), as would the comprehensive supplement of course.
So, yes, you can feed half a ration of any two if you like but you should not need more than one full dose of any in normal circumstances.
Jackie
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Post by jennyb on Jul 10, 2007 12:16:50 GMT 1
Thank you very much for your advice Jackie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 10, 2007 12:38:58 GMT 1
Hi Lucy,
There are few feeds that help with arthritis to my knowledge, but linseed or linseed oil may be one of them, the Omega 3 fatty acids are beneficial for joints in general and tend to be anti-inflammatory. Cod liver oil of course already contains the final DHA/EPA that the horse uses Omega 3 to make as well. Certainly you should avoid oils like corn and sunflower that are high in Omega 6, which is pro-inflammatory. Cider apple vinegar is also said to be helpful, but I have no experience of it.
Do you have access to psyllium husk?? That is very good for the prevention of sand colic I understand, and I think pretty soothing to digestive system altogether. I am afraid Digest Plus falls into one of my soapbox categories of 'Pre and Probiotics that acidify the gut'.
Prebiotics, like the short chain fructo-oligosaccharides in Digest Plus are just fructans, very siimilar to the fructans that are associated with causing alimentary laminitis! They promote the growth of the horses 'indigenous' bacteria and so help crowd out pathogens - which may be useful in the short term if you horse is suffering diarrhoea due to eg salmonella bugs colonising his gut.
But, the indigenous bacteria that sFOS support the growth of, and the ones contained within Probiotic supplements, are actually the ones that produce lactic acid. Their support or supply actually makes the gut MORE acid, one step closer to colic and laminitis. Not a good idea in my book. IME runny droppings at grass is usually too much sugar, in effect supporting the excess growth of those same lactic acid bacteria again, making too much acid in the hindgut and upsetting the status quo.
However, luckily for us, we have an alternative in Yea-Sacc which does exactly the opposite, it actually LOWERS gut acidity, and helps prevent acid swings. You should be able to get it over there from anyone who sells D&H or Dengie feeds, if not let me know, I supply it and can mail it out to Europe quite easily.
Jackie
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Lucy
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Post by Lucy on Jul 10, 2007 13:12:24 GMT 1
Thank you so much. Very interesting and I will look into the yea-sacc situation and get in touch if I have any problems. I have used cider apple vinegar, didn't notice that it helped but then I'm not certain it's on a visible level, if you don't think it can hurt I will use it along with the oils you mention (any idea of dosage? is animal based OK for horses, ie cod liver oil?) What you say makes perfect sense re my 'runny droppping' boy, helps when 'in treatment' and then back to runny afterwards. Yes, I believe I do use psyllium husk: they all have courses of 'parapsyllium' every 6 weeks to avoid sand colic problems, though thankfully the weather seems to be on our side this year. Thank you so much again. This kind of thread really makes a difference. I'll be visiting your website :-)
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 10, 2007 13:48:18 GMT 1
Jackie - thank you so much for doing this for the IHDG - it is really appreciated. I'm very interested in what you say about feed imbalances causing hypersensitivity - I worked with a racehorse last week who was extraordinarily sensitive and while it was great I had a physio there at the same time I despair at the average racehorse diet and would love any evidence to back up how it causes problems.
Pie is so low maintenance I feel almost guilty about it - He has one normal scoop Alpha A a day plus top spec comprehensive - has been on Total Eclipse but just running out and wondering if to replace it with something else? How big a quantity do you sell your linseed in? Also I'm wondering whether your liver tonic would be a good idea at this time of year just to keep everything at an optimum? He's got a lot of travelling in October and I'm wondering whether to start your Yea Sac then rather than before for maximum benefits? Please can you remind me of the address where we can get hay analysed? Thank you so much. Kelly
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Post by Karon on Jul 10, 2007 13:59:44 GMT 1
Kelly, you are so lucky having a low maintenance horse!
Jackie, what do you think about Allen and Page Calm and Condition to put weight on a horse who tends to get a slightly increased digital pulse on normal mixes? This is my 18 year old, very well in herself, full of life but tends to lose weight if not on good grass (which she isn't as the rest of the herd can't have good grazing and she won't stay separate from them). She's been having linseed and Alfa A but isn't that keen on them now and someone at the feed store suggested the A&P. The tendency to lose weight is normal for her but she'll also gain weight easily enough when I find something she eats happily. Ideally I'd put her out on slightly better grazing than the others but it's difficult when you've got just one who can cope with more grass.
Thanks.
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jul 10, 2007 15:45:22 GMT 1
Do you mind if I piggy back your question Karon!!? ;D Concer sounds similar - on good grazing he puts on weight, without he loses it.
He is maintaining his weight on .5kg dry weight unmollassed sugar beet pulp, 1kg dry weight pelleted lucerne and .3kg of grass nuts - well soaked and split into two feeds. He has a splash of cider vinegar (14 year old ex-racer with a pinned leg so preventative), two thirds of a cup of extra virgin olive oil and calcined (is that the right term?) magnesium. He also has (almost) ad lib hay of questionable parentage! told it's Italian Rye Grass and I'm trying to source small bale meadow hay over here but it's hard. I've ordered more Total Eclipse as I ran out about a month ago (he's only normally on it in the winter) as well as grass nuts so I can increase them too - my OH is bringing them back when he returns on 24th July.
He's also very bright and full of energy the same as Karon's horse - maybe he's just looking 'like a TB' now and I'm used to the Welsh Cob model he used to be on good grass in the UK! Maybe a photo for advice would be a good idea.
The weather here is up and down with heavy rain, bright sunshine, 14 degrees to 28 in the same day and I think he might be struggling with that too.
(Edited as my ounces to kilos conversion went haywire and he is having half as much as I originally put!!!)
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Post by Karon on Jul 10, 2007 16:06:44 GMT 1
LOL, at least Ash looks like an Arab (she is!) as always - she never gets really fat on good grass but there's always still the chance of her having laminitis as she has had it in the past. She's been rugged in the bad weather we've had recently, definitely not doing so well in the rain.
Oh, and at the moment Ash is on D&H Build Up mix (as she's gone off the linseed) which she normally has with no problems over winter, but I'm wary of feeding this in the summer when the grass is growing as well. She also has hay but it's soaked as she's in with the others who have to have theirs soaked.
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Post by smonebull on Jul 10, 2007 17:07:32 GMT 1
Hi Jackie!
i hope you can give me some advice as i feel like i am struggling.
I bought my 13 year old boy from spain at xmas and he was fed on plain barley and alfafa with haylage.
when he came over, i have my horses on topspec feed balancer (cubes) with alfafa oil and sugarbeet. He lost loads of weight and condition no matter how much and often i fed him this so i changed to spillers calm and condition 1 scoop 3 times a day with just under half a scoop of top spec conditioning flakes twice daily with alfafa and sugarbeet with haylage. He has no grazing and is turned out in a sand paddock each day. Hes on top spec 10;10 for his joints.
Is there anything i can feed in lesser quantity and still keep weight and condition on?
he is Andalusian, stallion in an hour of hard work a day and competeing every other weekend so travelling a lot. The stress of travel does make him lose weight.
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Post by jennyf on Jul 10, 2007 18:29:59 GMT 1
Thanks so much for all your help Jackie - it is certainly appreciated.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 11, 2007 11:38:57 GMT 1
Kelly, as you know the average racehorse diet is problematic in so many ways: Lack of fibre compared to starch means the gut is always 'on the edge', teetering on the brink of colic. Excess starch and sugar also cause wide glucose swings - 'highs' and then rebound crashes which take some pretty wide hormonal swings to control. Plus all that starch and long periods without food obviously wreak havoc in a stomach that is continually pumping out acid. These alone are enough to make any horse who evolved to be a 'fibre fermenter on four legs' somewhat uncomfortable and not wanting to be touched! Horses with gastric ulcers can be oversensitised from their shoulders to their hips IME, and very irritable and hyper. I do believe lack of magnesium can be a problem for performance horses too, funnily enough probably more nowadays that compound feeds are used, as I think magnesium has lost out in the boosting of calcium levels to compensate for the excess phosphorus in grain. I can remember seeing my lad galloping all over the field one day as a youngster, in a total frenzy with some horseflies who's torment he could not bear. I looked out the next day and though 'Hmm no flies' as he was calmly grazing, but just as many were out - the difference was the 25g of magnesium I gave him overnight. That about sums it up - for some horses it can means the difference between coping and not coping with something irritating like flies, or a physio. I'm glad for you Pie is so easy - my ambition used to be to go round Badminton - now it is to one day own a horse I can turn out to grass 24/7!! Yes, I can do micronised linseed in any quantity you like, and that would be fine for Pie if he's already getting his vits and mins and you just want some fat to keep his coat looking good. Spring and Autumn are good times for a Liver tonic - that might help him cope with all the travelling given at the time. I would start Yea-Sacc at least a month before though, give it time to help build up some resilience in the gut flora. Yea-Sacc is a longterm maintenance product really - each kilo lasts 3 months, so that's pretty easy to do. Can you remind me again on the hay analysis - I am just about to talk to a new lab and try to get a deal for my clients. Meanwhile it's D&H that do the proximal analysis for a fiver (just protein, sugars, acidity for haylage etc) or both they and Bailey's can help you with mineral analysis. For minerals www.directlabs.co.uk are the ADAS lab. I always used to use a lab in the US as it was half the price but now the FDA have made it impossible to send hay samples into the US, bio-security n'll that. HTH Jackie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 11, 2007 12:32:11 GMT 1
Karon, I am afraid I can't approve of any A&P feed as they put probiotics in them all I believe, and I just don't think probiotics are good for horses. I would also be deeply suspicious about the metabolic state of any horse that got pulses on a mix, and want them blood tested for insulin resistance. Regardless I always feed horses via the lowest starch means anyway, and I usually prefer a balancer bulked up with some beet and alfalfa, top dressed with some linseed. But sometimes I know it's easier to get more in with a bagged feed, so I would start at the bottom of the starch/sugar ladder and work my way up. The new Winergy Equilibrium Senior looks a good contender, or there's TopSpec Cool and Condition cubes, and Spillers Response Slow release cubes. If there are definately no metabolic problems you can go for a raised fat ration - Equilibrium Growth, Saracen Re-Leve or D&H ERS, or add a little oil as you have done Gill. Nothing wrong with that diet - you can just feed more of everything if need be, but I would tend to use a broad spectrum supplement to make sure traces like zinc, copper, selenium and iodine are covered.
Smone, do you mean A&P Calm and Condition - Spillers have no feed of that name? I am horrified to see that is 15-20% starch and 5% sugar as well - that's a pretty high starch feed in my book, you don't the starch to get that DE of 12.5 MJ/kg.
I would try D&H ERS Pellets as one of the highest calorie feeds on the market at 13.5 MJ/kg or Re-Leve at 13.1. These are both raised fat with low starch and sugar, designed for horse that tie up or have PSSM, but are fine for a normal healthy horse too (I would just avoid raised fat rations with horses that are insulin resistant). The other thing you might consider is topping up with magnesium and Yea-Sacc to help him cope with the stressful periods.
HTH
Jackie
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Post by smonebull on Jul 11, 2007 12:48:48 GMT 1
thanks jackie! funny you should mention the Dand H pellets, i was thinking of changing to them....i use the conditioning cubes from spillers at the moment but the higher fat content makes sense, i'll change it asap and get some yea sac
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Post by Karon on Jul 11, 2007 12:52:56 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie, I've got Khafif on the Spillers nuts still so can change Ash onto them as well. She wasn't that keen on the Equilibrium - I bought it for Khafif who didn't like it either! I've been thinking about getting an insulin test done on Ash, and probably the others as well who I treat as if they are IR anyway.
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