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Post by mandal on Jul 4, 2007 20:48:14 GMT 1
Jackie you are a star!!! Could I ask what is the best way to assess a horses vitamin and mineral status? I mean blood samples, hair analysis etc? ? Is this more useful than sampling grass,hay and feed for a baseline assessment? Also if a horse moves how long before his body has adjusted and will give a true profile of his current environment? I hope this isn't a silly question Jackie!....or rather questions.... Mta..............Oooo ......and please may I ask about absorbtion of magnesium oxide..........Is it OK to feed it in one daily dose or is it better to split the dose throughout the day?? .......I'm going away Jackie so wont ask any more questions!!!! ;D Btw.my questions do not relate specifically to horses with metabolic problems.
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Post by Lorraine L on Jul 4, 2007 23:14:52 GMT 1
Hi Jackie, I just wanted to say what a star you are for doing this for us all. Your help and advise means so much to everyone and goodness knows how many horses benefit from your assistance. Thank you and i hope that Meena is ok ? ( I think we forget sometimes that you are there with your own horses trying to cope ! ) Take care
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rummi
Olympic Poster
Olympic Poster
www.naturalhorsesupplies.co.uk
Posts: 744
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Post by rummi on Jul 5, 2007 0:05:41 GMT 1
Thanks for the advise about the mineral/salt licks!
I'd like to try feeding magnesium oxide to my 2 horses, and theres a few more at our yard who'd like to try it.
Can I ask how much you sell it for, in what amounts, and is it possible to buy a large bag of it? Thanks
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Post by moody-mare on Jul 5, 2007 10:56:09 GMT 1
I just wanted to say thank you for the advice. I sent you an email
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 5, 2007 11:57:00 GMT 1
Hi Mandal, IMO neither blood tests nor hair analysis are much use as nutritional assessment really (as opposed to medical). Blood only gives you 'one moment in time', and of course the horse will compensate a great deal, for instance drawing calcium from it's own bone stores, before letting serum values go too far out of whack. Even blood and urine combined, as in a creatinine clearance test, are open to huge variations in interpretation, and again can radically change in a matter of hours.
Hair should be less changeable, and I think can be used to determine things like heavy metal poisoning or trace element deficiency. But, interpretation of hair analysis is far from an established science, and I have a feeling is still very unreliable.
So, all in all, I do believe that analysing the diet is still the best way to go. We do know roughly what horses need for good health, and I think avoiding deficiency and acheiving a good balance in the diet would be a great improvement in most cases. And after all, if you analyse your blood/hair you'd still have to analyse your diet to work out how to compensate.
As far as I know one dose of magnesium a day is fine, but if you're feeding twice a day, I think it good practice to split everything - well I do anyway.
Thanks Lorraine - his Highness is very grateful I 'arranged' for the ground to be made a bit softer again thank you, and is showing his pleasure with a certain amount of foolish bouncing around the field!
Rummi or anyone else, could you email me with regard to products and prices etc - 2007@MetabolicHorse.co.uk It is easier if I can just send you a doc that outlines all the alternatives and then we can keep commercial traffic off the DG.
Thanks
Jackie
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Post by Karon on Jul 5, 2007 13:12:23 GMT 1
This has just been asked on another forum I go on but actually I'd be interested in the answer too - what's the difference between a broad spectrum vit/min supplement and a balancer like Lo Cal or Top Spec? Not necessarily for IR horses but for horses generally.
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Post by marianne on Jul 5, 2007 13:47:46 GMT 1
I went to a vet talk on nutrition last week (unheard of here in France !!!!). One of the things the vet mentioned was about being careful about feeding oil at the same time as vits/mins as absorption of these might be inhibited. I feed Top Spec total balancer with extra oil for calories. Do you have any thoughts on this?
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 5, 2007 16:42:56 GMT 1
I am afraid not, I have not seen or heard of any specific research on the subject.
Feed balancers are in effect simply a broad spectrum supplement made into a pellet for ease of use. That pellet may be made up of a base of fibre, protein, or sugary/starchy stuff depending on the brand etc.
Jackie
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Post by nich on Jul 5, 2007 22:15:46 GMT 1
thanks very much Jackie. am beginning to accept that my mare's behaviour may be just that - behavioural as have investigated every other angle..
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Post by Karon on Jul 6, 2007 8:18:00 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie
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Post by chrissiew on Jul 6, 2007 10:21:57 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
You are a star giving up your time like this! Wonder if you could give me a little advice. Minnie as you may remember has shown signs of LGL since being barefoot - she is now completely stabilised and sound over anything/no pulses on Top Spec Antilam/speedibeet/hifilite/mag ox/linseed. She also has either TS cool and condition cubes or Spillers Slow response cubes (both of which haven't caused any problems). Plus a regime of limited grass (either muzzled or stabled).
I also feed her Rosehips & a small amount (1 or 2 teaspoons) of Seaweed to help boost her hoof growth rate.
She is also on 2 teaspoons of your Chinese Juglion(sp!!!) which she hasn't shown any adverse reaction to (I don't think).
Now the problem I have is that once about a month or so ago and currently, she has suddenly developed extremely stocked up hind legs and one slightly filled front leg (they do correspond with the three legs that show up lami signs first and the worst hind leg is the one that she always shows up any signs in first). She has poor circulation and old injuries on her hinds so they do fill up a bit in the winter or when stabled at times, but nothing like this. She doesn't appear to be in pain with it, although is very stiff because they are so swollen and hard.
Last time it happened I bandaged her whilst she was in and turned her out as much as I could risk on the grass. They did go back to normal in a few days, but its definitely not "normal" swelling from standing in.
This time if they aren't down by this afternoon (she will have been out 24 hrs by then muzzled during the day), I will I think call the vet out.
However, do you think there is any connection with her lami problems? Is it worth me getting her tested for metabolic issues (if I can convince my vet!) and I notice on the Chinese Jugolin label that there are warnings about any signs of adverse effects - could this be an adverse effect??
Her routine has not changed this week. The last changes were 2 weeks ago, when she has gone from being muzzled at night and in during the day for the last month or so, to being out unmuzzled during the night and in during the day, but she hasn't shown any problems with her pulses/footiness or any leg swelling prior to this.
Its never ending isn't it! Just solve one problem and another pokes its head out of the ground!!
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 6, 2007 11:28:30 GMT 1
Nich, I would bet that your mare's behaviour is not 'just behaviour' you know. In my experience, a horse who is tetchy and touchy has a physical problem that needs identifying. I have found for instance that all kinds of metabolic/hormonal disruptions can make them irritable for a number of reasons - tenderness, gastric acidity, disturbed gut function, etc, etc, so I would carry on searching for an answer I am afraid. My whole study of metabolic and endocrine dysfunction started some 20-odd years ago when I had a much-loved mare who became very tender accross the back of the belly each spring.
Chrissie, I would go ahead and get her tested if you can afford it. You have been getting some symptoms that all is not quite right for a while, so I would just run her insulin and glucose to make sure nothing is too far awry. I would always rather test BEFORE there is a major problem. What age is she??
I would definately take her off the JiaoGuLan for the moment. It is a potent tonic herb and definately 'puts energy into the system'. If that energy cannot flow (I am really speaking from the Traditional Chinese Medical paradigm now) then it can cause a kind of 'back pressure' which can give rise to all kinds of problems. That's why I recommend it is started after an Ayurvedic liver tonic course - that seems to 'un-gum the works' somewhat and help avoid problems. I would definately give her a bottle of Restore for now, I believe that might be a good thing for a hoirse that's stocking up, and you may have to stick to a low dose if you try JiaoGuLan again in a while.
I would also back off the Rosehips for the time being, and maybe use Hawthorn instead.
Jackie
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Post by chrissiew on Jul 6, 2007 11:38:43 GMT 1
Thanks so much Jackie - excellent advice as usual (I really do not know where you find the time!!) Edited to add - Minnie is 12 now, so definitely getting to the age where issues may start to show up
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naria
Grand Prix Poster
yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
Posts: 1,455
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Post by naria on Jul 6, 2007 21:27:39 GMT 1
Jackie do you believe that it's possible to feed too much hay?
My YO thinks I give my 9yo 16.2 ID too much hay & too little hard feed. He gets a about bale of seed hay a day, about 10 luciebix, a stubbs scoop of Saracen ReLeve (cereal free, low starch, high digestible energy), Benevit, Cortaflex, U-Gard Plus & 5-8 hours turnout on fairly poor grazing. YO thinks he should be on 1/3 bale of hay, a couple of scoops of oats & "proper" mix.
He does about an hours schooling 4-6 times a week & a half hour walk out on the roads 1- 2 times. He has plenty of energy & is if anything slightly overweight. His biggest problem is that he's a cribber - on his current diet & routine he's very rarely seen to crib but if he runs out of hay (or he doesn't like the hay or I feed it in a haynet) then he cribs badly, likewise if he's fed cereals or isn't brought in when he starts gate-hanging. His weight is gradually decreasing as his work increases but up until a couple of months ago he'd had a lot of time off & got a bit blobby!
Would his diet concern you or would you be happy for me to carry on feeding this way? Is it possible to feed too much bulk fibre? Thanks in advance for any views or suggestions.
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dax
Advanced Poster
Posts: 330
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Post by dax on Jul 6, 2007 23:42:38 GMT 1
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