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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 7, 2007 12:02:24 GMT 1
Naria, you answered the question yourself when you said: "He has plenty of energy & is if anything slightly overweight". No, such a horse does not need any grain feed, period.
There is a quote from the famous nutritionist Don Kapper, which says something like "The ONLY reason for bucket feeding is to supply what the forage can not". Forage is always first choice as a feed, especially for a leisure horse.
I wonder if the seed hay is very poor, because most horses would gain weight on bale a day, so it might be an idea to sample it one day, get an analysis from D&H for a fiver to see if it is very low in protein or something. But as long as he gets his vits and mins and enough protein, if he can do the work you want him to do on mostly hay, then great, the more fibre he eats the better for his stomach acidity/cribbing.
Dax, I think you have a bit more of a problem than a horse who's a hard keeper I am afraid, you have some pretty serious muscle wastage to my eye. Firstly, unless it has for some reason been 10 weeks or more since you horse was shod in the photo you need to change your farrier urgently. His front feet are very overlong and collapsed, and could be causing him significant discomfort - certainly enough to cause back problems and muscle wastage higher up. I assume you have had his back checked etc. If not I would get a good veterinary physio out to give him full body assessment. It is my opinion that this is not primarily a dietary problem, especially if a summer at grass does not transform him.
6 scoops topline is too much, especially compared to an unknown weight of haylage. I suspect the grain feed may well be forming more than 50% of the diet by weight which would make the hindgut very inefficient. Haylage varies in moisture content too, and a high moisture content can sometimes mean people do not feed enough in terms of dry matter, actual pounds of fibre to keep the gut functioning properly. Come winter I would have a word with Nicola Tyler at TopSpec and take her advice on diet based on some photos taken nearer the time. I would certainly make sure he has some alfalfa in the diet, or get your haylage analysed by D&H for a fiver to make sure protein is adequate and work out what poundage must be fed.
HTH
Jackie
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dax
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Post by dax on Jul 7, 2007 18:17:34 GMT 1
Jackie-thanks for that. Those photos are not recent, the feet arew much better now, will get a few photos of him today for better comparision. He has had physio, tense in two places, not badly, but due to his nature impossible to tell fully or to do much treatment (visions of physios being flung out of the stable spring to mind) Will try and weigh the haylage, they are out with a round bale at day (he eats all day!) and in with a large pile during the night. On any less that 6 scoops he drops condition, on 6 scoops he gets for him, 'fat'. Which areas would you class as muscle wastage? He naturally has a dipped back and pointy hocks, always has and he events up to novice level happily, only just up at that level, ad works well on the flat although tense at times. TopSpec is a slight issue for me as I believe it can tend to make them more exciteable and he can be quite forward going at the best of times. He also gets mollichaff, around 2 scoops with his topline. We have discussed his back with the vet and the top BHS people and the generall theory is that is just him, possibly*some disagreement here* due to poor schooling as a youngster, although since he was ridden by the world champion I doubt it.
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naria
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yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
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Post by naria on Jul 7, 2007 20:14:07 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie, I thought I was right but she'd got me doubting myself.
The hay is meant to be fairly good quality, certainly I have to watch how much of it I feed to my Sec D youngster as he will gain weight on it. Jim works fairly hard when he schools though, mostly trot with increasing amounts of canter being included & the surface can get a bit deep. He also plays in the field & most of his games include running!
Thanks again, it's very kind of you to take the time to read & answer these questions.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 8, 2007 11:07:51 GMT 1
Dax - I am confused, in your first post you said your horse was out on decent grass 24/7 in the summer and eventing without any feed, but now you are talking about adlib haylage and overnight stabling?
Six normal scoops would be at least 12kg of hard feed which I assure you would keep most horse's gut so disturbed as to be permanently on the verge of fatal colic, and certainly in a state of gross 'maldigestion'. Look at it this way - if your horse is 600kg it should be eating 2% of it's bodyweight per day, ie 12kg in total, and no more than 50% maximum of that should be hard food, that means a limit of 6kg.
There comes a point where you can feed so much that the gut virtuslly ceases to function normally and the horse will not be getting the benefit from the food it does get. I have seen this in hunters who were being way overfed concentrates and losing weight - we reduced their hard feed, gave them better quality forage and fibre feeds which enabled their gut to work properly, and they gained weight.
I suggested you speak to Nicola as she is one of the best commercial sources of sound dietary advice. I assure you that there is nothing in TopSpec that might excite your horse that you are not feeding 10 times more of already, but it matters not - talk to ANY decent feed company nutritionist. There are better ways to get a high calorie intake and you need to find them. You need to weigh all your feeds and get a good nutritionist to do the math for you, preferably someone like Nicola who is committed to feeding horses in a way that suits their physiology rather than just shifting more sacks of unsuitable feed.
The mucle wastage is over the loins - from his croup to his withers. This could never be a normal profile IMO, there has to be (or have been) some problem there. Being started by a world champion is no guarantee of avoiding damage - there is a fair percentage of wastage amongst competition horses as well as racehorses, they push them hard and the horses can either take it, or they can't.
I have seen topline profiles like this before on horses that were forced to work deep when they were tight in the back, and there was permanent damage. The other thing I would investigate if you really were feeding 12kg of hard feed is gastric ulcers, that would be highly likely on such a high level of concentrates. Constant pain from ulcers could cause this kind of wastage too I believe.
It's good to hear his feet have improved at least.
Jackie
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Post by jennyf on Jul 8, 2007 17:17:24 GMT 1
My laminitic pony has been on Formula 4 Feet for a couple of years now. Because she is on a diet of hay, and laminitis trust endorsed feeds, I feel now that she is 21, she might benefit from a little addition of TopSpec Antilam, but I wondered if this would be too much in the way of supplements for her.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 8, 2007 21:55:15 GMT 1
Yes, it's an 'either/or' choice really. Why not try each and see which suits better.
Jackie
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dax
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Post by dax on Jul 9, 2007 0:26:32 GMT 1
yes-in the winter he is stabled at night. Summer 24/7 turnout. 6 scoops is 6Kg of topline (the recommended amount which seems a lot to me but with the amount of stress his condition causes I'm willing to try most things) I was under the impression it was 2.5% of it's bodyweight or possibly more if the horse is underweight. I aim to feed more fibre than concentrates as I am aware of the problem of ulcers etc. I however have no idea how you would solve ulcers in a case like his as the vet is a huge stress issue and blood tests I believe would be impossible. Permenant damage ie in the shape of the horse do you mean? This is just his shape tbh. He is not asked to work in any way he doesn't want to/can't, our favourite exercises are long and low to stretch him. I know that re: world champion, in fact I suspect he was pushed fast up (novice eventing aged 5/6) but would have thought the schooling would be correct. Aged 12 however I don't feel his shape will change, I can get him to a stage where he is not showing his ribs and looking today his flanks have actually filled out a good bit. You would be surprised what effects him, different types of chaff, or topline mix or conditioning feeds and he is like a bomb. Here we are, todays photos: entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2609036580065949736HBYnJdentertainment.webshots.com/photo/2745090030065949736nKuvDPentertainment.webshots.com/photo/2250192650065949736ZofMTNAnd keep going through to see more, including feet shots. And some from last year when he was actually in good condition. None I can find from when he was just arrived good-times.webshots.com/photo/2453899640065949736tYmmOhgood-times.webshots.com/photo/2221979230065949736UNzxLU
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 9, 2007 11:01:16 GMT 1
OK, well you are talking about a smaller than normal scoop - it is important to quote accurate weights when talking about feed. If it was 6kg of hard feed he was getting, as long as he was eating over 6kg DRY weight of forage it could be sustainable.
The point about the 2% in this instance is to guage what your maximum '50% grain' might be. In some horses, 2% is the upper limit of their appetite, so 1% is the upper limit of the weight of grain you could feed. But if an underweight horse will eat more, well and good. You can on paper feed them more grain if they will eat more forage, though I do not believe that is the way horses should be fed. It is better for them physiologically to use higher calorie forage, digestible fibre based feeds and some additional fat rather than rely on starch and sugar, which is generally detrimental to them. For that I suggest you speak to a good feed company nutritionist.
If you are saying that your horse is too stressed out to handle a visit from the vet or the taking of blood tests would be impossible, then IMO you should try a therapeutic trial of medication. No horse should be that stressed. You could try an antacid product in feed first, there are many on the market, and if that seems to help your vet could prescribe medication to see if that helps further. If the horse is really that stressy, I strongly recommend you test this out.
I am afraid I cannot help you further Dax - your horse is not underweight due to lack of calories, he has poor muscling over the topline which as I say I believe is so marked it must be caused by past or present physiological damage or pain, and cannot be 'just how he is'.
Jackie
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Post by jennyb on Jul 9, 2007 14:18:37 GMT 1
Rats, I just typed out a question and the forum logged me out!!! Start again... Jackie, I'd like to ask a question about my horse please. I'm worried I might be overfeeding vits & mins. He's living out at the moment, in the winter he comes in at night and has ad lib organic hay. He is fed twice per day on organic lucerne pellets and speedibeet, supplemented with Riaflex, Devils Claw, MgOx (from your good self) garlic for the flies. He also has Formula 4 Feet and Top Spec Comprehensive powder. I put him on the Top Spec years ago when he was seen to be eating poo in the field, he stopped when the TS was introduced. I put him on the F4F 18 months ago due to poor hoof quality, my farrier and I both think his horn quality has improved with the F4F so I'd be reluctant to stop it. I feed both at less than the recommended amount so as not to overdose - but I'm wondering if the F4F will give him all the vits & mins he needs on it's own? He can still have the TS if he needs it, money isn't a problem, but I don't want to feed something if he doesn't need it. Thanks so much for giving your time to answer questions, I really appreciate it!
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 9, 2007 17:03:40 GMT 1
Jenny I am afraid the only way to work it out is to do the maths - literally work out what weight of each you are feeding, what that contains, and what the sum total is therefore. A full dose of both would be highly likely to be too much, particularly of something like Vitamin A.
Or you could feed half the recommended dose of each.
It's difficult to tell what F4F might not provide enough of as they do not publish their full analysis. It certainly does not contain any selenium.
Of course TopSpec Balancer would provide most of the soya amino acid protein that F4F supplies, or their AntiLam balancer the extra methionine specifically, so that might be an alternative.
Jackie
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Post by jennyf on Jul 9, 2007 17:32:50 GMT 1
I'm very loathe to stop the formula4feet as she does need something for her feet, but I don't think it provides all she needs. Could I perhaps fee half measures of both? Or, perhaps it would be better to finish the formula4feet and then start the antilam.
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dax
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Post by dax on Jul 9, 2007 23:48:27 GMT 1
Jackie- he is not too stressed. He can't handle needles or vets. We can just about get him to handle having a swollen knee or something lower down looked at. Due to past bad experiences, we struggle to get a needle anywhere near him...so bloods is absoloutely out, vaccinations is bad enough as 17hh of horse throwing himself around is not fun. He now associates strange people (e.g phgysio) poking his neck, or me pulling his mane (even with scissors/pulling comb) with this and gets tense and difficult. He tries his best to behave but he can't. You're not seriously telling me that because my horse is afraid of vets he is obviously in pain/needing a dietary change? He is basically a thoroughbred, hard to keep weight on, an odd shape either due to conformation, or poor managment in the past. Something he certainly hasn't got now or in the past several years. I did not expect any help, asking for thoughts. I have got feeding him to a fine art, he lets me know when I go over or under the amount he needs, and I'm afraid you will just have to accept that is how he is. He has high withers, a jumpers bump and a dipped back, all of which combine to give him an odd shape. Interestingly the physio is coming to see him next week, not due to any of this but to the fact his 'hump' (as his backside is affectionately referred to) is very suddenly sore to the touch.We'll probably just about be able to treat him, as that's not a 'hot spot' for him. Or is his dislike of physios due to a dietary imbalance too?
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Post by jennyb on Jul 10, 2007 7:32:46 GMT 1
Whoa, two Jennys asking about F4F, this is confusing!!! So would Top Spec Anti Lam be worth looking at as an alternative to F4F - does it contain most of the "hoof helping" ingredients that F4F does? And if I fed the Anti Lam, I wouldn't need to feed the Comprehensive too? I'll check out some labels, I think! Thanks for the advice.
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Lucy
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Post by Lucy on Jul 10, 2007 10:29:26 GMT 1
Hello Jackie, As others have said thank you so much for what you are doing, it is much appreciated. I have a couple of questions which seem a bit 'mad' to vets out here (France) :-) The first is regarding my 21 yr old AA, he has arthritis for which he is treated and seen by vets on a regular basis. Is there any specific feed-component that can help arthritis? Is there anything I should be avoiding? He currently has sugar beet, baileys chaff, baileys senior mix, hay when he's in and he is out during the day and in at night. My second 'case' is a 7 yr old AAxWD, she had surgery for sand colic in December 05 and was on box rest for close to a year. Since the grass has started growing she tends to bloat, and occasionally I can hear gas being sent back via mouth. She has been examined and scanned at a clinic and they can't find a reason for this. Again, she has sugar beet, chaff and local, plus all day turnout (though less since she's been bloating). I seem to have a digestion problem and my vets are at a loss to see where it comes from. One of my 3 year olds gets 'runny' droppings on a regular basis. They have all been on digest plus recently for 2 weeks approx. The other 3 year old was eating droppings but that seems to have stopped with the digest plus. I realise you cannot give solid answers but any pointers to investigate would be great! Thanks
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 10, 2007 11:27:40 GMT 1
Dax, an inability to tolerate such touch could definately be related to dietary imbalances - did you know the shock of inserting a needle to give a magnesium injection can actually kill a cow with hypomagnesemia. Such imbalances do not kill horses, but as with some hormonal imbalances, they too can make touch almost intolerable for them.
But, as you firmly believe your horse has no physical problems and you have perfected the art of feeding, then as I say, I can be of no further help to you. Perhaps you would have the grace to leave this thread to others who do feel they might benefit from my help.
Jackie
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