gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jul 11, 2007 13:09:36 GMT 1
Thank you muchly for the advice Jackie - appreciated. I'll need to order some magnesium from you soon (still have the price list you sent me a few weeks ago). You wrote ".... I would tend to use a broad spectrum supplement to make sure traces like zinc, copper, selenium and iodine are covered." Any recommendations? Bearing in mind it has to be 'local tack shop' accessible for my OH in the UK to bring back with him or postable (at a reasonable price) to France! Thought I'd add a couple of photos so you can see what he looks like now compared to last October when he arrived here (he's the chestnut sideways on to the camera grazing not Douzy who seems to be saying "is this my best side?"!):
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em&ed
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Post by em&ed on Jul 11, 2007 13:26:42 GMT 1
Jackie how kind of you to give up your time like this - no doubt you will be inundated!! I wondered if you could recommend a vits & minerals supplement please? And is this what's known as 'broad spectrum balancers'? (sorry to sound dim) I don't know if you need any other dietry info for my horse? So just in case, He is a good do-er, only has to look at grass and has a belly!So at the moment, He is out at night and in during the day on soaked hay. He has 1 scoop hi fi lite with a couple of carrots and an apple, all sliced so his mag ox sticks to it! and he has garlic, yeast and salt, split between 2 feeds. someone suggested there could be some vits & minerals that he isn't getting on this diet. The grazing is a former dairy farm which - I am told - can also be a source of rich grass. Sometimes he doesn't eat all his chaff so that's why i try to get the mag ox etc to stick to the succulents. More powder may just annoy him! and therefore i wonder if pellet form of a balancer may be better? many thanks
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Post by SarahW on Jul 11, 2007 17:23:00 GMT 1
Hi Jackie,
like everyone esle, I am really grateful for you giving up your time to do this.
I wondered whether you would be able to give me some advice about my foal who is six weeks old today. He was born out on the New Forest to a first time mother who is in good physical condition. He came in last week with his Mum because he has developed a fungal infection of the skin - a bit of rainscald and some ringworm. I have had the vet out who has given me Imaverol for his outsides but I wondered whether there was anything I could give him for his insides to help him fight this infection. None of the other grown up horses have it but I understand that quite a few New Forest foals have got it this year because probably because it has been so damp and of course they live in close proximity to cows. He is thriving otherwise. He is due to have his first wormer and I was going to give him panacur granules.
If ever there is anything I can give you advice on in return then please let me know.
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lovelylace
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Post by lovelylace on Jul 11, 2007 19:46:16 GMT 1
oooh, this is great, need some help with a few things...
my two horses is now grazing on good quality grazing, I have had a salt/mineral/vitamin lick out in their field but want to move away from that as one horse seems to eat more than the other...I now instead want to have a salt lick and feed vitamins and minerals in a feed a day. I been looking at feedmark, are there multivitamin supplement good? and what can I put them in so that I they wont put on more weight....
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 12, 2007 9:49:48 GMT 1
Many thanks Jackie - I really appreciate your advice on here. We're also planning to use one of your articles in the IH Association magazine for September (if that's still OK) Thanks again. Kelly
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 12, 2007 11:49:27 GMT 1
I'll try to answer several queries in one go. A broad spectrum supplement is simply one that contains a broad range of vits and mins for general good health rather than only a specific few for a particular problem. Such a supplement can be pelleted and bulked up on a protein or fibre base to make a balancer for ease of use.
Because of my specific area of interest, I am usually looking for supplements that contain the best levels of nutrients that horses with metabolic problems and poor feet need, but in general in a good broad spectrum supplement I would seek to find:
Vitamins A, D, possibly C and definately E. I look for good levels of Vitamin E, ie a minimum of 1000iu per day for a 500kg horse. Vitamin E is one of the most expensive vitamins, so the quality of a supplement can often be assessed by the inclusion rate.
It's nice to have a full range of B-Vits too, with folic acid and 20mg or more biotin.
I want approx. 100mg copper and 250-300mg zinc daily, as that is virtually always deficient in hay analyses, and at least couple of mg of selenium and iodine to avoid deficiency there.
I expect there to be a top up of amino acids lysine and methionine, and would like some of the trace minerals to be supplied in bio-available forms, bioplexes or chelates. Some yeast inclusion is always welcome, but no fructans or probiotics!
And if it's a balancer for horses with metabolic problems, I want a total starch and sugar level under 10-12%.
There may be several products out there that fit the bill, but TopSpec Balancer and Comprehensive supplement are about the closest I have found. Benevit at the higher feeding level recommended looked pretty good and D&H Surelimb is a good budget alternative, as is Bailey's Lo-Cal balancer.
Sarah, I don't really know what I could recommend for a 6-week old foal, I think he should be largely dependant on the mare and the content of her milk. But you might ask your vet if it would be OK to give Pure Aloe Vera juice - that has proven to be useful with all kinds of infection and I believe would be gentle enough for a foal. There should be some Forever Living people out there with experience with horses that could advise you on amounts - I would think 50-75ml a day.
Kelly - please could someone remind me nearer the time what we decided to run, I have totally forgotten, but I think I was going to edit something for you!!
Jackie
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jul 12, 2007 13:21:24 GMT 1
Some yeast inclusion is always welcome, but no fructans or probiotics!......There may be several products out there that fit the bill, but TopSpec Balancer and Comprehensive supplement are about the closest I have found. Top Spec Comprehensive, from their website, includes: "Two probiotic substances to create a healthy gut environment, improve fibre digestion and maintain a healthy immune system: - 1) A pure, protected yeast. Recent work by Dr. D. Cuddeford B.Sc. (Hons), PhD at the Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University has shown that this exciting new form of yeast can significantly improve fibre digestibility in the horse. This allows horses to gain more benefit from the fibrous parts of their diet. 2) A mannan oligosaccharide (MOS). This is a natural sugar that occurs in yeast cell walls. It bonds with pathogenic (undesirable) bacteria, removing them from the gut, leaving the beneficial bacteria free to multiply. The combined effect of the two yeast products is a healthier gut environment with improved digestive efficiency." Now confused as to whether 'yeast' is a probiotic or has 'probiotic effects'!? I can get it here though - I believe Wendy has deliveries (only a 6 hour round trip - hey ho!). Many thanks again for your help, Gill
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 12, 2007 15:07:45 GMT 1
Oh dear, I wish Nicola had not used the word probiotic, but it is difficult when you want a term to apply to 'gut affecting stuff'. Maybe I should qualify my statement by saying 'No acidifying probiotics'.
In my book the difference is clear:
Probiotics (live lactic acid producing bacteria) increase gut acidity. Prebiotics ie scFOS (short chain Fructo-oligosaccharides) increase gut acidity.
Live Yea-Sacc (and maybe other brands of yeast) lower gut acidity. MOS (Mannan-oligosaccharides) do not affect acidity either way, they just gather up pathogens and remove them.
So, IMO the first two are to be avoided, the second two are beneficial.
Jackie
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jul 12, 2007 15:37:14 GMT 1
Well, 'gut affecting stuff' doesn't have the same professional ring to it! I think I've got it - thanks for clearing up my confusion. I'll scuttle off and give someone else a chance now!!!!
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Post by fin on Jul 13, 2007 10:56:14 GMT 1
Jackie, do you know what category of 'gut affecting stuff' Aloe Vera Juice would fall into? I use it on my determined crib-biter and it is actually the only thing that works and he's generally much more comfortable when he's on it. I'm trying not to use it long term--I use up a litre bottle then stop if he seems OK, restarting it if he starts cribbing with a vengeance (he does it out of annoyance too, but I think only a personality transplant will sort that one). Have you any idea if Aloe Vera would be safe to use long term, or could it have undesireable side effects on the gut or indeed the rest of the horse?
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Post by SarahW on Jul 13, 2007 17:49:05 GMT 1
Thank you Jackie.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 14, 2007 12:26:29 GMT 1
Finn, I think it would mostly fall into the category of 'damn clever gut affecting stuff' actually. I had just decided I was going to start buying it in in bulk myself for my own horse, who has an ongoing problem with gastritis. I have used it periodically before, whenever things got bad, but not made a concerted effort to do a sustained longterm 'maintenance/prevention' trial.
I first researched Aloe some years ago when my vet recommended it for post-viral syndrome after a paper was published. It definately has a good track record for antioxidant activity, immune system support, increasing the healing rate of burns, wounds and ulcers, and also for internal conditions like gastric ulcers and Irritable Bowel Syndrome. I see recent research suggests it may reduce inflammatory cytokines in the stomach, as well as protecting the mucosa and accelerating ulcer healing.
I know it has both anti-fungal and antibacterial properties, but whether that might mean a detrimental effect to the gut of a herbivore over a long period of time I don't know - ask me in a year! None has ever been recorded to my knowledge, and I suspect it would be fully absorbed quite early in the digestive passage, but I shall certainly keep my chap on Yea-Sacc anyway.
Jackie
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Post by fin on Jul 14, 2007 22:13:34 GMT 1
That's interesting--thank you! I couldn't find anything on long term use either, but I've been using the aloe vera off and on since last year and I don't think it's done any harm--but it certainly has helped with the cribbing. I kept mine on yea-sacc as well though Where on earth do you buy it in bulk? So far I raid Holland and Barretts when it's on special offer or BOGOF and buy six months' worth in one go. It's the cheapest way to do it I've found but the staff do give you very funny looks as you stagger out with their entire stock in about ten carrier bags......
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Post by hazelhorse on Jul 15, 2007 6:53:52 GMT 1
Jackie, thanks for giving up your time for us all.
Prompted by your comments on the mag ox and sensitivity to flys biting, I wondered if you could give me a little advice. My horses are all supplemented with mag ox, and all are showing improvements in various areas. However, on the biting flies front we have a terrible problem with black flies, the awful things that bite inside ears, and sheaths and tummy buttons etc. I was researching the life cycle of the nasty little things, which apparently breed in flowing water, we border the Trent, so that will explain our problem then! I came across a piece about a special beer brewed in Dorset around the river Stour where the flies are a problem, and this beer contains ginger which apparently eases the pain and inflamation caused by the bites keeping you more comfortable. So I was wondering if you know anything about feeding ginger to horses, with as a prepared supplement or just as a natural product. I felt it might be worth a try to help the poor sore horses, but obviously not if there are any contraindications.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 15, 2007 11:58:01 GMT 1
Finn, a couple of my trade suppliers do Aloe Vera, but none I have found so far at a really good price, so I never bothered stocking it before as I could not offer it at any better price than Holland and Barret! Maybe one day I'll find a low cost source but I have a feeling you may get what you pay for.
Hazelhorse, I rather doubt that feeding ginger would have any effect at all. Ginger is part of the TCM materi medica, and is used where 'warming' is required, but mostly for stomach complaints and nausea. It does actually raise the blood pressure, given enough of course. The fresh product would be milder than dried anyway, which is a bit 'hot'.
Jackie
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