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Post by katefox1812 on Dec 10, 2007 0:17:28 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
If one is already feeding Bailey's Outshine to a horse that needs to gain weight, would adding extra oil to his feed be OK? (He's not gaining enough weight, so we want to add something more - but it has to be something non-heating!)
I wasn't sure about adding more oil, because Outshine is already an oil-based product. If extra oil would be OK, what sort of oil would you recommend?
What do you think of milk pellets to help weight gain? (Several people have recommended this.)
Sorry - should have said - horse is a 3yo pure-bred Arab stallion, who drops a lot of weight in the stud season, so we're desperately trying to put weight on him before the season starts.
Thank you so much for doing this advice-thread, by the way!
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Post by chrissiew on Dec 10, 2007 10:36:40 GMT 1
Hi Jackie - thanks very much for quick reply. Plus thank you for your support regarding my sister's boy - its nice to hear about your mare having her's removed succesfully.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 10, 2007 12:29:25 GMT 1
Kathy, I have no specific inside knowledge on carrots, but knowing they are high enough in sugar to effect some laminitics I would not be at all surprised if they could affect behaviour in some horses.
Kate there is a limit to the amount of oil it is wise to feed, so I would check with Bailey's to make sure you can add more according to how much of their supplement you are using, and how much fat is in that amount. They should have all the up to date data on what the limits for fat use are - because it is contra-indicated for horses with metabolic problems it is not a subject I keep up on.
You can get extra virgin Olive oil from a cash and carry it is relatively cheaply, which is a cold-pressed source of a more 'benign' oil. It is high in omega 9 rather than omega 6 which can be a bit pro-inflammatory.
Linseed or Cod liver oil are the best sources of omega 3, and I would include one or the other, but neither should be used in bulk so you'd need to mix it with another oil. I found cold-pressed Rice bran oil in a supermarket the other day, I forget which one. But that is high in omega 9 too, though very low in omega 3, but contains a sterol called gamma-oryzanol which some companies claim have anabolic effects on horses. That might be worth a try, mixed with a small proportion of linseed oil.
Jackie
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LynnG
Advanced Poster
Posts: 340
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Post by LynnG on Dec 11, 2007 8:36:03 GMT 1
Jackie..just an update to say that my horse is gaining weight and so much healthier and happier looking..so thank you for your advice as i can feed him now without worrying if he is getting the right stuff.
Also a quick question..some people on my place are swearing by a liquid supplement called TLC have you any knowledge of this as i would love to know more about it.
Thanks LynnG x
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 11, 2007 11:49:30 GMT 1
Lynn, glad things are looking up. TLC is a bit of a wierd one, neither fish nor foul. The diets I recommend are fully supplemented with biotin and zinc so adding those two elements alone is a bad idea. In fact supplementing zinc without copper is generally a very bad idea in my opinion, and could really exacerbate a copper deficiency. This supplement is also based on soya oil which is high in omega 6 and pro-inlammatory, especially without any extra anti-oxidants, which do not seem to be present, so I see no reason to feed that - cold pressed linseed oil or micronised linseed would be far more beneficial being high in omega 3. Just because something puts a shine on a horses coat does NOT necessarily mean it is providing better overall health. A lot of people are fooled by that.
And I don't know if the allicin they quote is from garlic, but most people here know what I think about that!! The 'co-product of distilling' would be distillers syrup I would guess, which varies enormously in it's analysis so I have no idea what that would contribute to the mix. But in general it would be a product I would avoid!
Jackie
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Post by katefox1812 on Dec 11, 2007 16:16:23 GMT 1
Thanks very much Jackie - I'll ask Bailey's how much extra oil I can feed with Outshine.
But in your opinion, is oil (and/or oil-based products) generally the best option for non-heating weight gain? Or is there some other feed or supplement that you would recommend?
(He already has ad lib top quality hay and haylage, by the way.)
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Kerryf
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Kerryf on Dec 11, 2007 16:19:54 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
My pony has been on ryegrass haylage for a week now and he's not being ridden much at the mo, only once a week. But his behaviour on the ground has got worse and he's just getting a bit big for his hooves! I've resorted to turning out and bringing in with the dually as he tries to tow me to his stable!
I was just wondering whether the ryegrass could be somethign to do with it.
I dont' know what was in the haylage I had before this batch as a friend's dad made it at his farm, but I can't get anymore from her.
Thanks
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 12, 2007 19:38:38 GMT 1
Kate, with a fit working stallion you should not have any health worries whichever way you go. In general fibre is the safest form of feed and I would always try to use something like Dengie Alfa-Beet first for weightgain. The only higher calorie fibre feedstuff is soya bean hulls, which are used as a basis for feeds like Spillers Response Slow Release cubes, giving them raised energy without much starch. For good doers, natives, or horses with metabolic problems who cannot have much oil for fear of causing problems with insulin resistance, that is the direction I would take.
You could try D&H ERS pellets - they are a low starch 10% fat pellet that is quite calorific. But as I say your boy should be fine with some grain based feed anyway, so the choice is yours. I can't remember what the consensus is on whether adult horse can digest the specific sugars in milk pellets, but they can certainly digest the proteins and fats, it's a very high quality supplementary feed, and apparently does indeed build condition.
Kerry, ryegrass is the highest sugar of all the grasses so generally it's as well to avoid it IMO. In haylage, the sugar is supposedly fermented into fatty acids already, but that would vary enormously according to how it was made, so some could be high in sugars or acids, which could easily affect behaviour.
Jackie
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LynnG
Advanced Poster
Posts: 340
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Post by LynnG on Dec 13, 2007 7:39:01 GMT 1
Thanks for that Jackie..I shant be using that then!
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Post by pollymania on Dec 15, 2007 12:46:57 GMT 1
I have fed Dengie hi fi lite for years, but my current pony is going off it and leaves most of it behind in his feed bucket. What would be a suitable alternative. He has had one bout of mild laminitis in May this year, he is in good condition, not overweight, he has rationed grass for a couple of hours a day, in a yard with soaked hay for the rest of the day and stabled at night. He currently gets 2 haynets during the day (approx 4llb dry weight) and 6llb overnight, if I give him more he leaves it. His 2 feeds a day are dengie hi fit lite mixed with a little speedibeet and dodson and horell safe and sound (which he likes) and a handful of hi fibre cubes. Plus top spec anti lam and magnesium. What is a nice low calorie chaff? would dengie good doer be ok? or should i just feed him safe and sound? I can't get simple systems feeds here or I would try that. I have always liked hi fi lite as I can feed plenty of it to keep him munching, is safe and sound a bit too "good for him" if I up the quantity? Any other suggestions, just need something to keep him happy and think he's getting a feed! ETA he is 13hh, driving pony but not in work now until March time.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 15, 2007 15:44:39 GMT 1
You don't need so many different feeds Pollymania - I would recommend simpy feeding the Anti-Lam balancer in some Speedibeet OR low sugar chaff, and forget the Hi Fibre Cubes and Safe and Sound.
For a chaff you could substitute Dengie Hi-Fi Senior or Alfa-A Lite. I would use the latter chaff or soaked Dengie Alfalfa pellets instead of the Speedibeet as hay is so poor this year that little top up of protein is a good idea. I would also change the Anti-Lam balancer for the Comprehensive to get the little bit of soya in the base.
So, to recap - I would just feed the original TopSpec balancer with some Alfa-A Lite or soaked Alfalfa pellets.
Jackie
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Post by pollymania on Dec 15, 2007 15:52:08 GMT 1
Hmm thanks, was trying to steer clear of Alfa A as he got footy on it once. Is the hi fi senior ok for laminitics? My hay, (made ourselves) is within normal ranges for protein, I had it analysed, so thats not a problem. Trouble is he can be fussy and if I stick to just one chaff he soon goes off it.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 15, 2007 19:26:50 GMT 1
Fine, then I would recommend just using beetpulp, or Hi-Fi Senior. That is only 8% or so sugars, so should be fine, I have had no problem using it on my laminitic for a couple of years now. Unmolassed beet is 5-8% sugar, so is the safest of all.
If you need to ring the changes you can use Safe and Sound, though that does contains some 'unecessary' starch, or Winergy Equilibrium - Low or Senior. They are very safe and palatable, and come as a 'chaff with bits in' anyway.
If you only feed one thing with the balancer you could give him a complete change every now and then - taking care to transfer slowly of course.
Jackie
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Post by angblue on Dec 16, 2007 23:40:09 GMT 1
Hi Jackie I can't get hold of Alfalfa pellets, would Alfa-A-lite be ok instead? It's just to up my cobs protein a bit, to recap they get TS comp, speedi-beet & Hi-Fi Lite at the mo, they are in light work & in good condition(not fat). I'm finding them a bit lacking in energy when hacking for an hour, could be the horrid weather! Thanks in advance
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 17, 2007 12:22:53 GMT 1
Yes that's fine, swap it for the Hi-Fi Lite.
Jackie
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