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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 21, 2007 15:46:39 GMT 1
Jes, I am sorry if I left you out! I would suspect that you need to increase the haylage - 5-6kg dry weight is about the minimum amount of hay I would like to feed a horse of that size, and haylage can be up to 50% water which would leave you very short. Now we are coming into real winter I would give him more - preferably enough so there is a wisp or two left in the morning.
I would change your AntiLam for the Comprehensive balancer, and change the Speedibeet and Hi-Fi to soaked alfalfa pellets or Alfa-A Lite to make up for any shortfall in protein. That should be OK - just keep measuring him once a week to make sure his weight is gradually reducing over the winter.
Jane, I'm not really sure what to suggest here - it sounds to me like there is more going on than meets the eye and I would be inclined to pursue the veterinary angle. Meanwhile however, not knowing exactly what is in the Dengie feed I would be inclined to use TopSpec Comprehensive, balancer or supplement, to make sure he got a good dose of all the vits and mins, and feed that in a little unmolassed alfalfa. You could even add a Vitamin E supplement to that - there are several on the market that are just Vitamin E and selenium. TopSpec contains a good dose of both, but in case you had a deficiency a little extra would help you normalise levels faster.
It is the excess starch in grain that can cause a problem, but grass can be high in sugars which can amount to nearly the same thing. If his problem occured 24 hours after a frost it could be due to something like a sudden rise in fructans in the grass. All you can do there is try bringing him in at night, or make sure he has adlib hay on days after frosty nights. But if it happens again, I'd be demanding further investigation for any underlying condition.
Sorry Teeni, I have absolutely no idea how you could estimate that, but I am sure someone has tried and I read something somewhere not long ago. I would just keep googling!
Donnie - I would still go for the Comprehensive balancer - that bit of extra protein will be very useful this year, and there aren't that many more calories in a couple of cupfuls. And I would try a little extra magnesium and see if it effects his fizzy behaviour. If a small dose quietens him down, you can be pretty sure he was short of it in his diet. There's never going to be enough in any general supplement or balancer to make up for a shortfall in your hay, so if it is required, it has to be fed separately in my experience. If it isn't, and it makes no difference when you feed it and your horse is healthy, then leave it out.
Speedibeet is useful in large amounts as a safe source of extra calories, for work or weightgain, or in small amounts just as a safe carrier for vitamin supplements.
HTH
Jackie
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Post by jes on Nov 21, 2007 20:12:12 GMT 1
Thank you Jackie. I'm almost at the end of my current bag of Anti-Lam so will get the comprehensive balancer next time and I will start giving him extra haylage.
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LynnG
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Posts: 340
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Post by LynnG on Nov 24, 2007 5:28:50 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
Can you help me with a horse who has been ill and needs to gain weight? he escaped into a field and had the equine equivalent of staggers and even after a few months had not properly picked up...then we discovered a dental/mouth problem which was seen to on Thursday..now we have to have dental treatment every 3 months. However the vet would like to see an improvement in his weight in at least a months time. He has always managed very well just on grass/hay and speedibeet/fibre pellets/hi fi lite with surelimb/magox before but now I have added top spec balancer and taken away the surelimb but am unsure what to add for weight gain. He has had liver problems in the past although his latest bloods have came back as fine. He is out at night with access to haylage and in through the day with ad lib haylage. He gets 3 feeds a day at the moment as well. He seems to prefer the hi fi lite to any other type of chaf..perhaps he finds it easier to chew? he did not do well on readigrass...but perhaps that was because of his dental problems? In the past he has not been able to cope with high amounts of protein either so I am baffled as to what to feed..vet adviced the top spec but nothing else...will top spec help with weight gain? I just feel I am missing something here.
Bear with me jackie whilst I try to explain this..the vet thinks that if after a month he has shown significant weight gain then there will be nothing else underlying and we can put the loss of weight down to dental problems..now I worry that if I add stuff to his feed that will make him gain weight without having to chew it...he will gain weight but could still be suffering in his mouth and we wouldnt know..does that make sense jackie..can you understand what I mean? I do have difficulty explaining things! I dont know if there is anything to add that he would have to chew in order to gain weight! If you know what I mean...or would I be better to add something and then if/once he has gained weight..take him off it and see if he maintains his weight? He will be seen for his mouth/teeth every 3 months anyway. Sorry for rabbiting on but I have been awake most of the night worrying about this!
Thanks Lynn
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 24, 2007 11:54:33 GMT 1
What was the vets diagnosis after he escaped into the field - I don't know what you mean by 'the equine equivalent of staggers'? Did he have colic or laminitis?? In what way was he unwell?
Jackie
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LynnG
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Post by LynnG on Nov 24, 2007 21:19:06 GMT 1
It was as if he was drunk...the sugars or whatever had fermented..like the cattle can get if put out onto spring grass..cant remember the proper name Jackie...sorry.
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 26, 2007 11:47:52 GMT 1
OK, well the TopSpec balancer might help him gain a bit. All things considered I would try Hi-Fi Senior instead of Lite - that just replaces the straw with hay so is a bit more nutritionally valuable.
And then I would change the Speedibeet/fibre pellet to Spillers Response slow release cubes. These still provide calories primarily from digestible fibre, but they provide a fair bit more than than ordinary high fibre pellets, with a low level of starch too (which horses with poor liver function may need). Remember if you use eg half a ration of such vit/min fortified cubes, you should cut the TopSpec down to half a ration.
I would not worry about proving why he looks poor - just get him well and try and keep him that way now.
Jackie
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holly
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Posts: 511
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Post by holly on Nov 26, 2007 19:42:16 GMT 1
This is fantastic, Jackie, if you could help me at all i would really appreciate it. i have a 15 hand three quatres Arab and quatre paint. He is a very stressful chap and extremely accident prone. He is rising five and has spent so much time at the vets through one thing and another. He was recently admitted to new market as he lacerated his pastern, to be fair he is lucky to be with us. He had to have a cast on for a long time. He returned home on continued box rest and ended up with compacted colic the day after he had traveled for three and half hours. He was then allowed out for an hour, were upon he came back in on three legs. The opposite leg to the in ital injury. It was thought he had bruised his sole, then an abscess, fractured pedal bone to a final diagnosis of pedal bone rotation. He had gas in the front of his hoof. He has had a dorsal wall cut done to release the gas, he has had plastic shoes put on. He is looking quite poor at the min, and still very lame. they have suggested farriers formula. so any feed advise or anything would be great. The vets do not beleive it is due to him being over weight or food induced, but i no so little about what i should do now when he finally comes home (i pray he comes home) in regards to feed regime and everything. thank you so much holly xxx
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LynnG
Advanced Poster
Posts: 340
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Post by LynnG on Nov 27, 2007 7:00:07 GMT 1
THANK YOU Jackie..this is a wonderful thing you do giving yout time and advice on here for us. I will go and get what you have advised today..I am pretty optimistic as he is already showing signs of being happier and more like his old self..I just hope that we can keep on top of his mouth with 3 monthly dental work..if not then its and op..but what will be will be. I am just happier now that I know what to feed him..again thank you Jackie.
Lynnx
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 27, 2007 13:02:25 GMT 1
Oh dear Holly, poor little chap!! I think the best thing is for me to send you my diet sheet for laminitics, which is suitable for any non-laminitic too - horses actually only need starchy feeds if they are sprint racing! Email me on 2007@MetabolicHorse.co.uk for that.
Basically I would approach his diet the same way as with any recovering laminitic - making sure he has a generous supply of everything he needs to regrow his feet healthily, without anything that would wind him up or cause him metabolic problems. I would put him on some magnesium just in case as well - both because he is stressy and he has been very stressed by circumstances.
If I were you I would talk to your vet about putting him on sedalin for the first few times he is turned out next time, and preferably only do that after a programme of in-hand walking that takes the edge off him first!
Jackie
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holly
Olympic Poster
Posts: 511
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Post by holly on Nov 27, 2007 16:44:39 GMT 1
thank you so much jackie i can not thank you enough, i am off to email you now love holly
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yan
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
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Post by yan on Nov 27, 2007 22:04:13 GMT 1
I Have received my order Jackie, & you have so many other interesting things, many thanks
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hope
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 130
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2007 13:18:01 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
Could you tell me what the recommended daily amounts of glucosamine, Chondrotin and HA should be in a joint supplement for a horse with problems please? I am getting so confused, some people say at least !0g of glucosamine per day and that it is not worth feeding Chondrotin or HA unless they are in equal amounts to the glucosamine which would make including them in a joint supplement very expensive. Even some of the vet recommended products do not contain 10g of glucosamine or more than 1000mg of HA or Chondroitin so surely they would not be endorsing products that would not be fully effective?
Also, I would be grateful if you could point me towards any reseach done on this subject if possible.
Many thanks.
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Nov 28, 2007 18:20:16 GMT 1
Just been advised to feed 1kg each of suregrow to two weanling dartmoors that weight 100kg this seem like an awful lot so was considering changing slowly onto topspec comprehensive balancer alfalfa and speedibeet Would this be a suitable growing feed for young natives and they have access to ad lib hay and grass during the day. Thanks in anticipation of your help it is much appreciated
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 28, 2007 20:14:00 GMT 1
Hope, I think the juiry is still out on exactly what is required - there is not enough research to be able to make the necessary judgement, that I have seen anyway. Research suggests that combined products work better than any single substance, but exactly which will work best for your horse and his particular pathology/physiology is debatable. I think you have to compare product details and prices, get the best you can afford, and try two or three to see which works best for you.
I avoid glucosamine in the joint product I produce as it is not safe for laminitics, but I guess I would look for 10,000 for treatment and 5,000mg for ongoing support. Chondroitin varies quite a lot in it's purity, but all I can say is my clients seem to find 1000mg of 90% pure sharks chondroitin to be an effective maintenance dose. HA I am far less clear about, but I would aim for 100mg daily.
Highlanderpony I think you are very wise! Suregrow is a very good value product, but it does contain a fair amount of starch and glucose and I would hesitate before feeding it to natives. The last time I cheched Buckeye Gro-n-Win was pretty low in sugar and starch so I don't know how that would compare costwise, might be worth checking out. But your plan is a good one IMO.
Jackie
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Post by maggiesmum on Nov 28, 2007 21:31:58 GMT 1
highlanderpony - My friend has a welsh cob stud and has been using buckeye gro n win on her youngsters for years with fantastic results!!! I'd definatly recommend it.
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