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Post by chrissiew on Dec 4, 2007 14:32:52 GMT 1
Hi Jackie More advice please! This time regarding my sister's boy, Chase. He has had the vet today due to a lump under his throat/neck and blood has been taken for testing for thyroid problems. Vet is reasonably sure that he has a problem - he has recently been difficult to hold weight on (which is very unusual for this horse). Obviously we won't change anything till we have a firm diagnosis and everything will be discussed with the vet, but we would like to get as much information as possible on this condition, including any dietary links. He's currently on full dose of Benevit, hifi lite, speedibeet, mag ox, cortaflex and linseed. He also gets some hifibre nuts in his ball and on and off depending on his requirements, has some spillers slow response nuts or baileys conditioning cubes/TC cool condition added to his feed, but never more than 1kg and usually more like 0.5kg. His main forage is hay. Is there anything that can be done diet wise to assist thyroid problems? If so, do you have any recommendations on links/articles that may be of interest to help us get informed on this condition. Many thanks
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 4, 2007 14:48:55 GMT 1
Hi Melissa - ye, the herb Vitex agnus castus or Monk's Pepper is pretty good for calming riggy geldings down. I would try him on ground herb f he is a good eater, or a liquid version if not.
Angie, you need the kg weight of your cobs and the weight of hay they eat so you can work out the amount of protein they require, and the amount they are getting from their hay ration. At 7.9% you'll probably be quite borderline if their hay is rationed because they gain weight, so I would change the Hi-Fi and Speedibeet for soaked Alfalfa pellets as a matter of course.
Jackie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 4, 2007 14:59:11 GMT 1
Very interesting Chrissie, HYPERthyroidism in horses is pretty rare, though I have had a case. My mare had a malignant thyroid tumour which was successfully removed standing by my brilliant vet - a feat they said could not be done due to the complexity of the area. I would be interested to hear what you find in terms of hormone levels, if there is indeed excess thyroxine behind his weightloss.
Anyway, Iodine is the element most often related to thyroid dysfunction, but unless you had been feeding large amounts of seaweed I cannot see anything in your diet that would cause a problem either way. Functional HYPOthyroidism can be caused by gross deficiency of iodine, or possibly other elements like zinc and selenium, but the Benevit should ensure you are OK there too. Lack of protein might also cause low thyroid levels, but not high.
I would make sure he has adlib hay and up his feed as required to hold his weight - measure him frequently to be sure youi catch any weightloss straight away.
Let me know.
Jackie
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Post by chrissiew on Dec 4, 2007 15:54:43 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie for such a prompt reply. Very interesting what you say and I will keep you posted on his blood results (1 week wait unfortunately due to them being sent to Newmarket).
I did read the bit about iodine on a horse and hound article, but as you say nothing really in his diet to suggest a problem, he has never had seaweed or anything like that, has changed hay supply for part of this year (now back on normal one), but presume hay wouldn't be high in Iodine - it was farmed local to us (literally a few miles) so wouldn't have thought it would be a problem and others have had it with no issues.
I think we are doomed to have horses in my family with a metabolic problem one way or the other - this little chap was always our easy to feed one!!!
He is on ad-lib hay, but one of the reasons we called the vet is that he has gone from always eating everything in sight (and being a very good doer), to not finishing his hay at night (although still eating quite a bit), so unusual for him and not keeping his weight at all well. We have upped his TS Cool & Condition cubes as behaviour wise he is fine on these, so hopefully they will help to maintain his weight till we can sort out the root of the problem.
Thanks again for your advice, I really appreciate it.
Chrissie
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Post by angblue on Dec 4, 2007 19:08:39 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie, they do indeed get too fat on ad-lib hay as they just never stop eating! Will gradually swap the Hi-Fi/Speedibeet for the Alfalfa pellets. Thanks again.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Dec 5, 2007 11:24:29 GMT 1
great, thank you jackie.
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Post by happych on Dec 6, 2007 23:33:38 GMT 1
Hi I just got a wild 1.5 year old Shetland colt. As I never had a Shetland before I am a bit confused about feeding him, as I want him to be healthy and not fat! He has lived on grass all his life and does not know any hardfeed or hay. I won't be able to keep him on grass 24/7, therefore he will be able to get some hay over night and I want him to get the right supplements to grow up to a healthy and fit little horse. My other horse (andalucian) does get bruised oats and IWEST supplements (www.iwest.de, if you speak german). What would you recommend for the Shetland? Thanks Manuela
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 7, 2007 13:19:12 GMT 1
Manuela, I'm not sure what is available to you - he certainly won't need any oats that's for sure!! Meadow hay alone would be fine if it contained all the minerals he needed, but as there is always a chance it might not, I would feed him a good quality broad-sprectrum mineral supplement in a handful of nothing - like a low calorie chaff or some unmolassed beet pulp.
You are looking for a supplement that contains magnesium, zinc and copper, iodine and selenium, B vitamins and vitamin E (as well as others). These are the elements I most often see an additional requirement for.
In terms of food he could have a handful of linseed or a dollop of linseed or Cod Liver oil for his coat, but you want to avoid any other form of fat, any starchy grain-based feeds or excess sugar, from either molasses, sugary vegetables (carrots and apples) or rich spring grass. As he gets older you will certainly have to restrict his grass in spring and summer, or use a grazing muzzle to slow his consumption down so he does not get fat.
If you imagine he is a little like a diabetic from birth you will not go far wrong!! All they really need is enough high fibre food to keep them happily chewing for a number of hours per day. Plenty of exercise really helps keeping their metabolism healthy too. Good luck!
Jackie
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Post by CTW Equine on Dec 7, 2007 18:54:58 GMT 1
Hi Jackie, How would you feed TB yearlings in light work (longlining in walk)? I'm aiming for them to be looking in fit showring condition by spring. They are turned out during the day on ok/good grazing (not lush) and fed ad lib lovely ryegrass mix haylage overnight. Could you please advise for good doers and not so good doers Thanks.
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miggy
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Posts: 1,208
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Post by miggy on Dec 7, 2007 21:02:28 GMT 1
Right , i now have my magox thanks and need to keep weight on my Arab, who isnt in work, i have started the un mollased sugarbeet, Alfa oil (fibre feed in bag )and Benevit supplement, if i give him Extra virgin olive oil as well , what is the vitamin E supplement i need to use? Thank you for your time on here, you are helping SO many people , you are a STAR ;D
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Post by foxy on Dec 8, 2007 10:43:44 GMT 1
Hi Jackie
I have a 15' 3" PBA who is worked 5/6 days a week and competed 2/3 a month in sj and dressage at the moment, I event him during the summer. He is fine weight wise but I just feel he lacks that extra bit of oomph (if you know what I mean) He feels very lazy as though he has no energy. I contacted topspec and tried their balancer, which did not seem to make any difference other than his temperment changed for the worse so I have stopped that. He is current fed on competition mix and chaff twice a day, he is stabled over night where he gets hay and out on the grass in the day - have you any ideas?
Thanks
Mary
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Post by chrissiew on Dec 9, 2007 12:37:09 GMT 1
Hi Jackie Me again! Bit of advice on Bosweilla for a friend this time. She has just retired her boy with navicular and he currently has half a sachet of Danilon once a day just to keep him happy and mobile in the field etc. She is interested in trying Bosweilla instead as he will be on it long term (forever) and is a relatively young horse (early teens). I said I would find out the feeding rate etc for her, so she can sort out expense. He's a 15.3hh lightly built horse. What would the feeding rate be for Bosweilla for him and do you think it is worth a try? Also, just to let you know after your kind advice regarding my sister's boy. His thyroid results came back as normal, so he is now off for a biopsy on the lump on his thyroid gland and will almost certainly be having it removed. We are just hoping it is not malignant. The vets are slightly concerned as he is apparently a young age for this type of thing - 10. Thanks as ever for your help. Chrissie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 9, 2007 12:40:56 GMT 1
Air78, I don't really specialise in youngstock, and on the surface it would seem a growing TB could eat almost any kind of food they want. However, there has been a link made between high sugar/starch/grain feed and developmental orthopedic disease, so I personally would avoid the usual youngstock mixes if possible. I would use a balancer - probably TopSpec or Gro-n-Win as these are quite low in sugars and starches. D&H Suregrow is exceptional value, but I fear quite high in glucose and starch still - worth asking maybe.
I would feed that with the usual high fibre feeds like beet pulp and alfalfa if additional calories are required, or possibly with something fairly low in starch like Spillers Response slow release cubes for a poor doer if they would be suitable. With youngsters, I would prefer you have a word with the feed company nutritionists to calculate proper allowances etc as I do not have that data in my head, and most of them run computer programmes to calculate diets.
Miggy, you can either use a 1000iu Vitamin E natural source gelcap from somewhere like Holland and Barret, or get a vitamin E supplement with selenium from any company - Equivite do a decent one, and NAF do one. I would aim to add another 1000iu per day - a hgiher levelk of antioxidants ios much to be recommended for all types of horse IMO (and that of some fairly high powered researchers looking into the matter).
Mary, if he is on a competition mix he is getting a fair bit of starch and sugar already, so I would not advise bumping that up to 'heat' him up in any way. I would give him a course of an Ayurvedic liver tonic such as Restore, and then try an adaptogen 'tonic' herb like Ashwaganda immediately following. These will help 'tune up' the metabolism and all kinds of bodily functions and usually livens them up a bit that way.
If you want a horse with energy on tap, you have to be prepared for him to be exhuberant because he 'feels well' sometimes though. Finding the balance is slightly different for each horse, but some people seem to expect them to operate like machines, which of course they are not (not you I am sure!!).
If you email me on 2007@MetabolicHorse.co.uk I can give you some details.
Jackie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Dec 9, 2007 13:10:49 GMT 1
Chrissie, yes, Boswellia might be just the job, I would try 20g day to start with.
Thanks for letting me know about the thyroid boy - I did wonder if he would be hyperthyroid as if it is hormonally active they are usually just plain ravenous. A lot of vets are not inclined to remove thyroid tumours as they are most often benign, but I was very glad my old vet was, as my mare's turned out to be malignant - after it was successfully removed. So, my experience would support surgery 100%! Wish her good luck from me.
Jackie
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Post by Kathy N on Dec 9, 2007 16:35:52 GMT 1
Hi Jackie, this is great to get some online advice. I'd like to know your views on carrots please? For my psychology project I'm looking at whether feeding carrots enhances behavioural problems. From my current research I think there are many factors, but if you have any scientific or nutritional advice I'd be grateful!
Thanks very much, Kathy Nadin
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