joanne1
Elementary Poster
!!! Maddison & MaGIc !!!
Posts: 88
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Post by joanne1 on Jul 23, 2007 7:39:29 GMT 1
Hi Heather I looked at craigs site and now from only looking at the pic's what everyone one is meaning about his weight especially with the little black horse. It really does look like it is struggling to come up through his back as if there is pain or too much weight. I my self was a big lass i have now lost six stone after having my children so i can ride magic and get her right for my kids. I didn't want to ride her until i was the right weight. It is so important to be a good riding weight. I cannot comment on any other of Craig's training methods as i have not seen him in action.
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Post by lucitania on Jul 23, 2007 8:15:01 GMT 1
Hi Joanne, I would not really know many people ('backpeople') by name, I was just trying to say that I feel it is very important to only use people who have a recognized training, are appropriately registered and insured. There are many charlatans out there and just about anyone can invent themselves a 'backman' title. Having started my EBW training and knowing what I know now, I am simply horrified by what some of these people do, one person 'adjusted withers at T10' (which is kind of weird as the highest point of withers are at around T4 ) and another goes around telling people whose horses have been diagnosed with shivers that they have stringhalt instead. I have also heard the stories of 'a chiropractor' (obviously one of these self-taught people) who tried to work on the 'heavy lump' in the lower neck (erm.... the vertebreal column.... ) and diagnosed a hip-problem while 'massaging' the tuber coxae. Nuff said! ;D Derek, I believe I clerly said said that I am going by what a number of people (Craig's fans) have adoringly told me, I believe I also stated that all this may or may not be true. However, when a group of people attend his clinic and all come back saying he had made these same claims, you have to wonder.... I also said that 'if all this is true' (about the saddle issue), I am not passing hear-say as gospel. I also feel that adoring one person to the degree of not seeing any fault in them is not very healthy, be that person Monty, Craig or the Queen.
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Post by jennyb on Jul 23, 2007 8:38:11 GMT 1
Hi Luci - what's EBW? Sounds interesting!
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Post by lucitania on Jul 23, 2007 8:47:09 GMT 1
Stands for Equine Body Worker. It means we use various modalities (massage, range of motion, stretching, myofascial release etc) to look after the horse's wellbeing on the whole and to help to optimize his performance. www.equinology.com/The teaching on the course was simply fantastic, I never thought I could learn so much! Well, I guess you can expect that when teachers include osteopaths for the US olympic dressage team etc. I am hoping to go to California later this year to take the biomechanics course with Dr. Hilary Clayton, too.
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Post by heather on Jul 23, 2007 8:54:14 GMT 1
Joanne,
I have great respect for anyone who loses that amount of weight in consideration of her horse, and I bet you feel a lot better for it too!
Sue, you are wicked! ;D
Heather
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2007 8:55:29 GMT 1
Hi Lucitania,
I have read some of your other posts over time and you have always seemed like a reasonable person, so I'm reading your latest posts with that assumption in mind.
I do agree completly that
If you read back through the posts I've made you'll see that there are occasions where I'm happy to highlight areas where Craig makes different choices from the ones I make. I hope you will also see that when I'm discussing approaches with someone, albeit sometimes a little heatedly ;D, I do try to pose questions rather than make accusations or unattributed statements which "lead" other people's thinking in a certain direction.
I've said on a number of occasions that all I would like to achieve is to raise the general awareness of Craig's existence so that people can come along and make up their own minds. He has helped me, my wife, our own horses and a number of other people and horses who I know. There have also been some people who have come along and decided it was not for them. Jo likes tea and coffee, I like beer!
I am genuinely amazed at the small number of people who keep coming back to decry him anonymously with a passion bordering on cultishness. I've refrained from saying this in the past but it's beginning to seem that way to me.
I can only speak for my own experience. I have never once met anyone who has made anything remotely like the claims you describe. Actually, I would love to find one - it would be extremely enlightening to meet one! Can you introduce me? All I've ever heard is stories reported as "this may or may not have happened" or "someone I know said they had such and such an experience". Who are these people and why won't they ever reveal themselves...?
As far as the question of "musculature" and "raising backs" goes, I can only suggest that you come and ask Craig himself why he thinks that it's OK for him to ride the horses he does and why they look the way they do. There are a number of assumptions being made on the basis of "appearance" in photographs - we all see what we want to see.
How can anyone be so sure whose version of appearance is "correct"? Have you ever believed in something only to find later, in the light of new learning, that there are other possible explanations? Of course, that reasoning applies equally to anyone who thinks the appearance is OK and I have given my own reasons earlier in this thread. The appearance is simply the result of the functional development of the horse, coupled with the conformation that was there to start with. As Amanda pointed out earlier, most of the horses we work with are of the "Heinz 57" variety, rather than those bred for display.
Just to pose a question to you, and bearing in mind this in the "Intelligent" Horsemanship discussion group - suppose Craig were actually the only person on the planet who thought the way he does (not that I think he is, by any means). Would that, in itself, make him automatically wrong...? How could you know for sure...?
I'd dearly love to stop posting on this subject. I feel in some ways like I'm riding a horse that wanted to have an argument about the aids, but won't let me get off even after it's already been resolved...
Derek
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2007 9:00:40 GMT 1
Hi Heather, From my perspective it would be a pleasure to see you here. ;D Given the apparent history between you and Craig and given that it is actually his clinic and not mine, I think I'd better just run it by him before I say yes, though. I will pass on your promise of "good behaviour " with a positive recommendation from me and Jo. Best wishes, Derek PS: You are right, you never hide behind a pseudonym, which has a lot to do with why I respect you as much as I do...
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Post by heather on Jul 23, 2007 9:37:47 GMT 1
Fine by me Derek, of course it is only courteous to ask. And Sue, look forward to seeing you again, if we can both make it somehow, and hopefully wont also need a boat to get there!! I am now flying up to Norwich for three days to our saddle manufacturers, so at least I will be above the floods!
Heather
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Post by Amanda Dolby on Jul 23, 2007 10:38:37 GMT 1
HI, guys. Firstly I would like to agree with everything that Derek has said. Secondly I would like to assure anyone out there listening that I do not hero worship ANYONE .I choose my own path and tollerate some of the bad to reap the good as I see it. It would be lovely to meet you all . BUT PLEASE If you do come, be tactful, I personaly at the moment am looking forward to a few days with my friends Jo and Derek as well as others. WAY ASIDE from the riding I go to renew positive energy and gain a peace that I find with my dear friends. I will probably have just had surgery on my achilles tendon - but should still be riding ( we'll keep it to walk) My horse if I bring my grey is just back in work after a bout of arthriticy lameness :-/and what I would like is the atmoshere to remain calm and serene as this has helped me and Ned so far and is what I need for my soul and sanity and I expect to find this at the clinic and on this DG - SO PLEASE PLEASE if you do come; talk about the history of the horse you see, before you make any assumptions about what is happening in front of you. I personaly do not wish to see any confrontation. This group of people and thier ways, general attitude to life and ideas ( not just Craig - but MY has he been patient) have kept me from being killed by this horse. I am not ashamed to say that I feel quite tearful as I write this as I am looking forward to my little holiday. Craig may be different, he may not appeal, he may have faults , I may agree with some things he says and does and disagree with others but as I have got to know him and his foibles as he has got to know mine - I like him. I can say the same for most folk I like and love and I guess they can say the same about me. Oh and just to add fuel to the fire - I like Steve Half Penny too! ;D Few that was opne for the internet! So ... I will start another thread about something that is troubling me that Heather mentioned " big bellied "horses
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Post by annabelle h on Jul 23, 2007 10:57:38 GMT 1
Oh boy . . . this is why I don't spend much time on internet groups . . I am probably the most experienced "Craig student" in the UK so can set some of the facts straight. (Having been instructed by him since 2001 and spent 2 years in the US riding regularly at his stables.) There are many, many things on which I don't see eye to eye with Craig - saddle fitting, feet, horse management and some ways of retraining "problem" horses. (Tho, for the record, never seen any saddle sores, in 4 years of visiting/living there.) However, most of the actual riding he teaches is wonderful. So I had to decide: whether I would reject everything about him because I didn't want to do some of the things he does, or whether I would stay around long enough to learn the useful stuff which could benefit every horse I rode in the future. I chose the latter. I mix what I've learned from Craig (and continue to learn) with Monty and Mark Rashid methods, and everyone I have taught has been very happy with the results they have achieved. Let's remember that there are many roads to Rome. I don't know why exponents of "lighter riding" in general need to disagree with each other. There are so many people in this country who don't have access to good "light" instructors (be they EE, Craig, Centred Riding, the better BHS ones or any other "method") - Of course we don't need to agree 100% with the way each other trains and rides - after all we are human - and agreeing 100% does sound a bit cultish to me! But surely we should be united in providing more horse-friendly teaching and training to as many people as would like it - without bad-mouthing other light methods of which we have no direct experience. You will *never* hear me doing that. I am delighted to recommend EE or Centred Riding instructors in areas of the country I can't get to regularly (after checking out the instructor in question). Just as I will recommend a Craig instructor if I am familiar with the way they teach and am happy with it. I don't think criticism of other methods ultimately helps the horse. Discussion of pros and cons, yes, but not criticism, particularly based on hearsay and rumour. I'm sorry to say Heather, that your comments do tend to come across as implying that your way is the only way, and anyone you disagree with is not "standing up for the horse". I doubt that some of the MRPCH qualified and recommended people in this country would be interested in Craig's riding if it wasn't gentle on the horse and beneficial psychologically and physiologically. So given I don't agree with a percentage of what Craig does, and mix the good stuff with lots of other methods, I don't think I can be considered cultish! He does deserve respect though, as one of the most educated classical horsemen around today, something that was borne out by Philippe Karl's recent commendation of him. One lady who rode regularly with Nuno Oliveira attends Craig's clinics and has greatly enjoyed adding Craig's viewpoint to her learnings from Oliveira. And as to poor joanne1, who was probably not expecting all this on her thread : my suggestion would be to stick with long-lining unless you have access to someone who will teach you to lunge without relying on side reins. Long-lining is so much more versatile and has much less risk of damage to the horse. No reason why you shouldn't experiment with some lunging without side-reins however - but in the main I would long-line in your position. Your sister's horse's problems could be to do with something else altogether, I wouldn't assume it's the lunging. It might be, but impossible to say without more information. Really it's up to her if she wants to lunge or not, I guess. Now everyone go out and hug their horses, and remember that these amazing animals are what it's all about, not arguing on discussion groups!! All the best, Annabelle
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Post by rj on Jul 23, 2007 11:08:50 GMT 1
Firstly apologies. I missed this thread previously and do not have enough time to read it all now, but wanted to make a comment, which I haven't seen any mention of on the first 3 pages.....
I long-rein in preference to lunging, (although I do the circling work on a single rope a la NH techniques)
This was taught to me by a well-respected equine physio who showed me how my horses back needed building up.
It can be done in an ordinary headcollar, with no side-reins or roller or anything else at all.
Over the years and now on 2nd horse, I have refined it so that the contact at the clip ends is minimal, but the handlers stance and hold on the reins conveys all of the right messages for the horse to follow.
We can halt & half halt, as long as my horse is listening and tuned in, standing 10m away, and without anything but the lightest feel on the rein, exactly as we do when riding. That is, by just raising the chest, and therefore the hands, slightly, and breathing out.
It may need a turn of the shoulders to 'block' the forward movement to back up the cue if I don't get it right, or she isn't paying attention.
The initial reason I was told to long rein was to provide a 'connection' for my horse to work within. He was encouraged to lower his head by a gentle tremor on the inside rein, and the feel of the outside rein sitting just above or below his hocks encouraged him to bring the inside hind under him more.
In Tellington Touch they work with body bands and I think it is the same principle.
I now incorporate my NH training so that I use direct and indirect rein aids, by holding hand out flat or using an upturned fist, for refinement and helping my horse make better use of her body.
Please don't blind me with science now, Derek - I do love reading your posts, but I am not able to counter scientific data with anything apart from 'I do it this way, & it works'.
I would not be able to achieve anything like the same muscle development and strength over the quarters and spine using a one rein lungeing technique, but that is probably my ineptitude!
Sorry if this is disjointed I have had to come & go when work calls me!
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2007 11:38:54 GMT 1
Hi rj
Great post! You sound like someone who really thinks about you do and hey, you just made me interested to go find out more about Tellington Touch...! ;D
Thanks!
Derek ;D
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Post by rj on Jul 23, 2007 12:26:58 GMT 1
Aw go on with you, flattery will get........... hey, are using your proven scientific skills to psyche me out?!
I will go back & read the rest of the pages, though as I do learn such a lot from all of the thought-provoking posts.
Good 'ere, innit?!
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2007 12:47:10 GMT 1
I just can't win, can I...? ;D Oh no, does that mean I have to feel like I'm winning... argh, just psyched myself out! Derek ;D
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Post by rj on Jul 23, 2007 13:11:44 GMT 1
Doh, you're a MAN; Of COURSE you can't win..... ;-)
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