to lunge or long line

[joanne1]

Hi there,

I would like different peoples opinions on the pro's and con's of lunging/ long lining.

Magic has always been long lined but my sister who is a riding instructor and rides at a high level likes to lunge. Recently she has had, had problems with her horse. Someone mentioned it could be the lunging.
All opinions would be a great help Thanks

[jennyb]

There has been loads of threads about this recently, have you tried a search?

You'll get the same responses TBH, people saying they never lunge because it hurts the horse, and others (like me!) saying that if you do it well and considerately, there shouldn't be a problem.

I think problems arise when people let their horses charge round at top speed on the lunge with no attention to balance, engagement, suppleness and rhythm. So it all depends on how you lunge really!

I would recommend that you talk to an equine specialist such as a physio or a vet, who understand how the horse's body works and also who understand what the physical demands and effects of lunging are. Ask their advice and see what they say. In my experience, vets and physios are pro lunging if it's done correctly and in moderation. But there are others on here who say their vet/physio doesn't like it!!!

Confusing, isn't it? But I trust my equine physio, she's made a massive difference to my horse and I've never met one as thorough and knowledgeable as her.

[Zuzan]

I think problems arise when people let their horses charge round at top speed on the lunge with no attention to balance, engagement, suppleness and rhythm. So it all depends on how you lunge really!

Absolutely agree with this, I posted on another thread about lungeing as from previous experience it is really really important to establish a good walk on the lunge (as anywhere else) and to gradually move up the paces.. lungeing is extremely hard work for horses and some are not built to be bendy india rubber dressage stars so they need longer to be able to stretch..

I would also say do not use any form of "balancing" or side reins unless you are a true expert.. let the horse find it's own self carriage in its own time.. It will but it will take longer.

[Derek Clark]

I would also say do not use any form of "balancing" or side reins unless you are a true expert

I'd say don't use them at all, especially if you are an expert. An expert would know how to use their hand skillfully on the lunge line instead to create whatever effect the gadget could offer. The downside of gadgets is that they have no sense of "feel", so while they might be "appropriate" for a moment, in the next moment the horse has changed and the gadget can't change itself into a more appropiate one... For example, the bit has to be "alive" in order for the horse to want to engage in conversation with it. You can do that with human fingers, but how can you do it with side reins? It's not about the appearance...

Self-carriage is what happens with the horse carries him (or her) self. If there is any sort of gadget or "scaffolding" attached, then it can't be in true self-carriage, can it...?

Just my personal opinion, of course. (Dons tin helmet and heads for cover... ;D)

Derek

[Catrin]

It's a discussion that crops up and the lungers won't agree with the long liners and VV.

Here's my take.

I've experienced problems loose schooling loads of horses that have been lunged excessively. A cavesson and a heavy lunge rein do not help subtle control of the horse. I don't use whips. There are reports from physiotherapists and chiropractors that lunging throws the horse off balance and you can demonstrate this effect quite well with a horse when you lunge it.

I have seen people like Max and NH trainers use a single light weight line to do circling exercises with a horse, I don't consider this to be lunging; I haven't tried the exercises, but would try the ones Max does if I had a lightweight line like he uses.

I haven't experienced or heard of any disadvantsages to long reining. I find it extremely useful. I have seen Chris Bartle demonstrate its usefulness. I used to live in Vienna and spent as much time as I could watching the Reiters at the Spanish Riding School do it. I find long reining extremely helpful to train a horse at all paces with changes of direction. I like to teach the horse the movement on long lines before I do it on its back. It is good for despooking horses (I have been working with one with agrophobia) before you get to put up a first rider. It enables you to do something worthwhile with your horse when you might not be able to ride (time, sore back in saddle area ...). It's easy for a helper to learn and do well, whereas they might not be able to ride the horse for you. If you have helpers, you can get a horse used to traffic and going on the road. You can teach your horse to jump on long reins.

[varkie]

Here is a link to a very interesting thread on this issue recently:

ihdg.proboards91.com/index.cgi?board=talk2&action=display&thread=1184503358

Catrin - I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on the points made in that previous thread.

[jennyb]

Just to add, I'm not a lunger exclusively, I also long rein and it's great fun. Particularly jumping on long reins as Catrin says! ;D I've been "hacking" my horse on long reins recently whilst waiting for a saddle to be fitted, gets you fit!

[Derek Clark]

A cavesson and a heavy lunge rein do not help subtle control of the horse

But they very much can do, if you know how to use them that way... General L'Hotte stated once that the aim of training was to have the horse respond to the weight of the rein and the draft of the boot. This is the French approach and works well with "heavier" reins (we're only talking a relatively small amount of heavier).

The Spanish riding school of Vienna has moved in a different direction over the years and uses much more physical contact than the french school. Light equipment works well when you have stronger physical touch. (Relatively) heavier equipment works better when the touch is only "mental". My personal observation is that horses seem to prefer the freedom of a system that strives for "mental" touch rather than permanent physical contact.

Derek


Derek ;D

[Derek Clark]

disadvantsages to long reining...

Ho hum, I seem to be having one of those "devil's advocate" sort of days.

Long reining can be great and has lots of uses. I use it myself from time to time. The potential downside, though, is in the quality of the touch that the handler uses. Very frequently, the handler will give "aids" by blocking or even pulling on one or both of the lines. Horses don't seem to like being blocked (though most - but not all - will forgive you if it's done occasionaly). You can test this by riding a very "hot" horse and trying it out - not that I really recommend doing that, though! (Don't try this at home, kids!!!).

If your horse doesn't dump you on the floor when riding, the other results of blocking like this can be that the horse becomes more difficult to get going forward or learns to take hold of the bit for security (see, he's not just being "naughty"! ).

If long lining using a Dually, the effect of these problems (pulling or blocking) may be less apparent, but they'll still there, only in this case it's the poll that's taking the strain. The results of that can again include difficulty in getting forward and/or a reluctance to engage the quarters sufficiently.

Long reining works best when the aids come from a "give" on a particular rein, rather than a "take" on the other one. It's quite subtle to do this well and it takes practice.

As I said, I do think long reining is a great tool but, like everything else, it's not completely without risks!

Derek

[varkie]

derekclark said:

Long reining can be great and has lots of uses. I use it myself from time to time. The potential downside, though, is in the quality of the touch that the handler uses. Very frequently, the handler will give "aids" by blocking or even pulling on one or both of the lines. Horses don't seem to like being blocked (though most - but not all - will forgive you if it's done occasionaly). You can test this by riding a very "hot" horse and trying it out - not that I really recommend doing that, though! (Don't try this at home, kids!!!).

Absolutely. I would second this. Some years ago, I wanted to get my mare long lining better, as I'd only done a small amount with her. An IH person offered to come out & give me a hand with her - as I'm usually doing all these things alone. I took her up on her offer, and have been kicking myself ever since - I let this person take too large a role in the whole process. She did exactly that - she blocked my mare with the lines. My mare is a very hot mare, and her reaction wasn't very pretty to watch. At the time, she got very stressed and upset, and ended up towing this girl around the arena with the lines. The next time I went to use lines with her, all I did was put them on, and go to take up a gentle contact and she totally lost the plot, and began rearing - something she NEVER does. Unfortunately I don't have regular consistant help, so have only been able to work on this from time to time. I now have her allowing the lines to be put on, and standing still, and taking a contact. We can take a few steps. We can't do this in an open area, and we can't do much, and we can't turn. I could curse myself for letting this happen - for the sake of a half hour of a technique done badly, I have spent several years having occasional sessions to put it right.

All techniques need to be done properly - any technique done wrong can cause such problems.

[joanne1]

Just to say everyone olympus is lunged in side reins which are very loose but have a slight contact he is lunged with his nose nearly on the floor so he is stretching through his back etc,

[Derek Clark]

Hi joanne1,

I just thought I'd add here that I'm not ever intending to have a go at anyone for doing whatever they do! ;D I choose to assume that we all do the best we can with the tools and knowledge we have available at the time. I'm sure there are things I believe now that I may look back on in the future and notice I've changed my mind in the light of new learnings.


In the spirit of trying to be helpful ;D

Thinking back to your original post...what actually is the nature of the problems?

Thinking of your last post... what is the aim of using the side reins?

Derek

[yan]

I just read your post on Varkies bookmarked page Derek,really facinating stuff.I have also just checked out your website,as someone who needs a lot of help with there riding,when will you be finishing the lessons in your area?

[Catrin]

derekclark said:

A cavesson and a heavy lunge rein do not help subtle control of the horse

But they very much can do, if you know how to use them that way...

But, having only had the basic BHS lunging training, I haven't got a clue where to start to do that. From a mechanical viewpoint, I can only see an already heavy head on a cantilever gaining more mass and then an application of force along the lunge rein causing an imbalance. As I said, I can see how lunging causes problems, so I avoid them by never doing it as I was taught to.

My personal observation is that horses seem to prefer the freedom of a system that strives for "mental" touch rather than permanent physical contact.

Now this is interesting, because KFH was aiming to get self carriage with no contact at all. How does that fit in?

[Zuzan]

I'd say don't use them at all, especially if you are an expert.

Yes I agree with that .. I wrote what I did as I have never been taught or convinced that balancing gagets and side reins are beneficial.. I feel un expert about their use and stay away from stuff that I don't feel confident about..

Catrin I think that self carriage can be achieved by no / very little physical contact more thro body language much as in a round pen.. when I was taught how to lunge the position and body language is (I think) as important as working loose in a round pen.. very much like the still and calm seat of a good rider the peson in the centre really is a bit like a fulcrum .. but instead of vertical as in ridden work it is lateral / centripetal / centrifrugal in lunge work.. (I really don't know if this makes sense but I sort of have a mental picture which I have used that works as a kind of guide for me) Lunge work (any ground work) very much about feel like riding