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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2007 13:52:13 GMT 1
And thanks for bringing it back on topic, Zuzan, now bowing out.........
Heather
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 21, 2007 14:46:17 GMT 1
Further to my post re Phillipe Karl's method of long reining he state's that with the setup described
The below is from Phillipe Karl's book.. "..gives the inner ring a lateral affect comparable with that of the opening rein thus permitting the bending of the neck ..... A feeling of direct opposition exerted by the cavesson (where rein is attached only to the cavesson) on a horse lacking in lateral flexibility would be aggressive and useless. Instead of a bending of the neck, it would provoke either resistence (I assume the horse counter flexes with neck / head flexed outward) or an over-bent posture."
Would love to hear of people's experience with this setup are .. makes a lot of sense to me in theory but practical experience of this would be great..
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Post by lucitania on Jul 21, 2007 15:00:53 GMT 1
To go back to joanne's original post.... I have recently been converted to the school of thought that any modality applied with fiendish dedication is nothing short of a cult. I am not a fan of 'excessive' lunging, but can see how it can be a useful tool in the right hands. It gives the handler an appreciation of how the horse is moving, which is handy for the one-horse owner like myself. It should be noted how repetitive work on a bend puts a strain on joints and ligaments, not to mention that I truly believe horses must find lunging very boring. (well, I guess it depends on what the alternative is). I don't understand this obsession with lunging LOTS that so many 'old-school' horse people have (I was trying to find another term for the BHS-way, lol), and I find it very disappointing that it appears to still have such a huge foundation in the PC educational system. (based on conversations had with some PC members at the later stages) Joanne, you may have answered the question already, but I was just wondering what the problems your sister's horse was having were? As for saddle fitting and the general care of your horse's axial system, I would recommend this books: www.amazon.com/Horses-Pain-Free-Back-Saddle-Fit-Book/dp/1570762929I came home from my EBW course armed with this book (with many others) and truly believe every horse rider should own it. If someone claims that saddle fit has no importance to the horse's training and well-being, I suggest they start doing some athletic training in clothing that rubs and shoes which simply don't fit. If your child said their feet hurt as the shoes were too small, you would buy them shoes that fit, right? It beggars belief that (undoubtedly) these same people expect their horses to work in saddles that don't fit.
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Post by Amanda Dolby on Jul 21, 2007 20:28:35 GMT 1
I agree with Lusitania whole heartedly. Interestingly a little lunging 10 mins twice a week for a while was very calming for my "he has a screw loose" horse. I think he knew where he stood and found it calming. Heather as a rider and trainer of -on and off 25 years plus with other "recognized" horse qualifications that I incidentally don't think much of - I am choosing to be offended on behalf of those with Odd accents and that may be a little or a lot overweight! Yes Craig is too heavy and he has stopped riding at the last conversation I had with him. OK I come from the Midlands " eh up me duck" and due to injury am carry a couple of extra stone. My horse iwill "lift his back". ( though he does have other issues. So do tell what is the ideal weight and accent to be able to be a rider?! Many of those years I have spent x thousands of pounds and taught x number of clients and traveled x thousands of miles.In frustration about being unable to find a "way" that others were teaching that I was happy with, particularly with fairness to the horse I ended up being the equivalent of an "English" cowboy for a while so simply spent 8 - 10 hours a day in the saddle( not always on the same horse) trail riding. The difference is until this moment I have had no real reason to mention my past No I haven't written a book or made a machine to move like a horse - So what? I haven't had to justify myself so why on earth should you? Non of these things qualify to be or justify being offensive! Yes Craig can be ..... TACTLESS to say the least, towards people - to be honest I have been down right cringing at times. Well you two have that in common!! Cor and I thought I was bad coming from the place where a spade is a spade and a shovel a shovel and diplomacy is considered another planet - I know folks cringe about me being tactless from time to time Despite him doing some things that I disagree with re horse keep etc etc I am not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water. As regards correct musculature - I do see slim haunches doing high school moves - so will watch that one further Myhorsefanny I am sorry you had a bad experience - no I am NOT a strasser advocate . I prefer KC for the barefoot horses. and I'm not totally anti shoes either. Like a lot of things somethings are down to communication skills and sometimes personality. I believe I am doing far better than I have ever done and with tact and fairness to horse and rider. I would like a Luso or PRE though as so far I have Heinz 57s to prove my skills on and worthy they are and I love them to bits One thing is for sure there are some very strong personalities out there in the horsey world and on this DG- I think thats why I buggered off up a mountain to be honest. Op I truely hope you have got some answers to take you further with you rproblem and I'm sorry this thread has turned a little off topic. At the end of the day it would seem the best option is to look at all the advise and do what you believe suits your horse and your personal values best. Not sure if any of the above made sense -I'm well into the wine bottle now Kind regards Amanda
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2007 23:44:01 GMT 1
I am sorry to have offended you Amanda, and also Zusan. Sorry also to take this o/t again, but I admit to being outspoken and at my age, should probably have learned more sense. But there seem to be so few who will stick their neck out, for the sake of the horse, and I am one of them. Craig and I are both renegades- at least we both have that in common! But if you think he can be tactless, you should have trained with Desi Lorent- he would make Craig seem like a fluffy bunny! Zusan seems to have misunderstood me in that she thought I was slating Philippe Karl. Nothing could be further from the truth!! He is one of the true Masters of equitation, and I admire him more than almost any other trainer in the world today, but like Nuno Oliveira, few have been able to copy him. I feel that his methods, those under saddle especially, require extreme skill and timing, are open to misinterpretation, and can produce the very upside down, big bellied horses I spoke about earlier, when these methods are used by the wrong hands. There are so many people coming into the horseworld in their twenties, thirties, or even older, and have no background in horses. They are all too easily misled, and can even more easily misinterpret. Classical equitation is seeing a renaissance, but it is just as important to educate correctly, those who are coming into the art, as to educate the dangers of rollkur to those starting out on a competition dressage career. There will always be those who will thank me for standing up for my beliefs, ( and my comments are never out of spite or insecurity or defensiveness, as has been levelled at me in a private email tonight) and others who will pillory me. Such is life Heather
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2007 9:28:30 GMT 1
Dear Heather,
I don't think you will believe me, but having met you both, my perception is that there are many qualities that you and Craig have in common (except that you are much the better looking ;D). Perhaps that is a fuel to the apparent conflict between the two of you - mixing TNT and Dynamite?
I must say, though, I am a little saddened that we seem to be spending time discussing who has the brightest match, when, I suspect if we were to put them together we might all be able to penetrate much more into the general darkness.
I would like to say how much I enjoyed your conference, that I think you treat your horses and humans very well and that I have absolutely no doubt that your heart is in a good place.
I do also empathise with your rankled feelings if I am contributing to the rankling in any way. I have, as you have pointed out, never purported to be an "expert". I do, though, believe that I have gained some valuable knowledge and experience within the field of equitation, combined with some considerable experience of training and developing people and teams from outside that field, which seems to be of help to the horses and people I am currently working with.
I am also mindful of the words of Bartabas (director of the new School of Versailles) who says that in his view "there is not a time when we learn and then another time when we earn". In my "previous life" as a rowing coach, I was fortunate enough to coach my first boat to a world championship gold medal at the age of 18. Unfortunately, though it was never my intention, that may have rankled the odd more-established person too.
I am genuinely interested in your comments about the musculature of the horse. Having said that, one of the difficulties I've often encountered in coaching other sports is a fixation on appearance rather than function. Biomechanics is a science that comes after the fact.
There is a rather pertinent example from a country which was a major rowing power in the early 1990's. The top coaches from that country were gathered together to be shown a series of video clips and asked to rank the technical skills of the oarsmen on display. The biomechanicists then got out their computers and demonstrated how the coaches were in fact "wrong". The national federation, naturally horrified at this, then changed all their coaching practices. The result was that this country failed to qualify any of its "prestige" boats for the next olympic games. They have still not recovered their former success to this day!
Thinking just of humans for a moment, I believe if we were to take more or less any two rowers, cyclists, skiers or tennis players and have them stand next to each other, we'd be hard pressed to define what the "correct" musculature is for any sport.
One of the criticisms that has been levelled at the Oxford University Boat Club (one of my clients) for many years by the British "rowing press", is that they don't look "technical" enough to win the Boat Race. Now I can say it's certainly not our aim to have them look "ugly" when they row, but in coaching them we focus on developing the attributes necessary to perform the task at hand (which is to row very, very fast for a very, very long time). Our record of success in recent years (5 wins out of 7) indicates we must be on more or less the right lines.
When some of those same athletes return to their foreign countries, they almost always perform better than they did before they come to Oxford and we frequently receive compliments from their former coaches on how much they have improved. Despite all this, the British Rowing Press, who all have a considerable number of years of experience in rowing, still imply that we are "doing it all wrong".
I am genuinely interested in the idea that there might be an aesthetically "correct" musculature for horses that is actually also functionally effective. I am also aware, however, that any animal (human or otherwise) trained in a certain way will develop certain physical characteristics. The danger thereafter is that we may see only what we want to see.
Even if we discount the matters of breed, muscle type and conformation, I personally don't know how to avoid the risk of sacrificing the functional performance of the horse (which is, I believe, ultimately tested by his ability to perform the low and high airs) by pursuing external aesthetics first.
If we take a horse (or a team, for that matter), which is happy, healthy, easy to manage, comfortable to work with, likes being around me, enjoys performing and is functionally successful, and yet someone comes along and says - I'm sorry, it just looks wrong to me - what conclusion would the average person on the bus draw?
I am open minded about this, though, and would gratefully recieve any guidance on where I could learn more about what determines the "correctness" of a horses muscular development, other than the subjective opinion of the human eye and mind.
If on the other hand, we are talking about sculpting the body of the horse to meet a certain artistic desire, then can't we agree that Picasso and Rembrandt both produced amazing work?
With best wishes,
Derek
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Post by fth on Jul 22, 2007 9:30:41 GMT 1
Hi there Have been away working for a while -- and one thing I LOVE about this group os how there are open discussions wher epeople can truly say what they beleive and think and it all helps the rest of us discover what is best for our horses
keep it up people -- keep it clean and keep that curiosity going
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 11:09:16 GMT 1
Derek, Thank you for that very reasoned, and reasonable reply. You are clearly a very intelligent and thinking man, and I truly believe that you will be an exceptional teacher of riding, with your excellent background of coaching to a very high level in other sport. The only thing that concerned me was the fact that your experience of riding had been confined to one method, and that is where I feel, from my own past, that being able to watch and learn from so many Masters in their own right, has enabled me to discern so much better what is right and what is wrong. For my own part, I do claim to have developed the techniques of teaching the absorption of the movement, but other than that, everything I have learned can be attributed to others, Desi in particular, taught me the refinement of the aids, as in weight and hands, and Dr Margaret Cox, the aid of the seat as taught to her by her ex SRS bereiters. The combination of these aids, enabled me to create a 'tool kit' if you like, that stands me in good stead for whatever type and breed of horse I work with. I love working with all breeds, not just Iberians, because each gives a different challenge, every time! I am hoping to get a few trips to Portugal going, and also to Philippe Karl, even just to watch. You would be very welcome, Jo of course too- indeed to join us on any EE excursion, as you would soak it all up like a sponge . I would be very happy if you would like to pop down to East Leigh again sometime too, to duscuss more about the musculature etc and how we would work to build it up. All the best, Heather
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Post by fin on Jul 22, 2007 11:35:44 GMT 1
Lol, I shouldn't say it really, but this thread has made me laugh so much--there's so much beautifully balanced mental fencing going on it's a joy to read. ;D ;D ;D And of course it has also reminded me that there's so much I don't know, which would probably be quite depressing if I wasn't looking forward to learning it (or some of it, anyway) Just for the record (to nominally stay on topic....) I don't lunge OR long rein. Neddy at some point has definately been lunged or round penned to death, and won't have any of it--someone who really knew what they were doing might get some sense out of him, but the last time I tried he wasn't exactly enthusiastic, and when I insisted, I got reared and squealed at, and then the poor chap just stood there with his ears drooping looking pathetic, and you should have seen him cheer up when I dropped the lunge line on the floor. Long lining didn't depress him but he assumed that the weight of the lines meant 'walk backwards' so got very confused when we wanted him to go forwards as well. We could have probably reversed for miles though I guess that one's easily sortable, but TBH for what I'm doing at the moment, I don't really need to lunge or longline, so there's no point really
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2007 12:27:43 GMT 1
Finn said: Nice one, Finn! Meanwhile, back at la salle d'escrime psychologique...Heather thrusted: Actually, I think that's more of an assumption...you asked about my experience pre Craig. Anyway, happy days! ;D ;D ;D I do like it when we're all friends and I would like to take you up on your kind offer of a visit at some stage. At the very least, I'd really like to get the benefit of your personal teaching on the simulator. Perhaps it's time to draw a line under this one now? (I need to go " soigner" my epée ;D) Derek PS: < En garde!>
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 13:13:54 GMT 1
Sorry Derek, my statement there, regarding your training pre Craig came about because you said you had actually only 'sat on a cob three times'. Now if this was tongue in cheek, you caught me out well and truly ;D! I feel very much that trainers need to have a wide experience of horsemanship in general, in order to understand even the psyche of horses who have had bad training in other disciplines than dressage. My genuine concern if your experience is limited only to Craig, may have sounded rather condescending which it was not meant to be, and for that I apologise. Of course you can come down and I will be only too happy to explain the simulators, or 'Equistimulators', as people still manage to call them! ;D Heather PS Touche!!
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 22, 2007 13:44:30 GMT 1
I think we should have a 'Hall of Fame' of DG threads - and this could be one of them! Well played guys! Kelly
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 14:12:11 GMT 1
;D ;D ;D Kelly!!
Heather
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Post by Amanda Dolby on Jul 22, 2007 15:04:37 GMT 1
Cool ! Nice one Kelly! To be honest this sort of "fur flying" can put a mere peasant like myself off doing demos and clinics as this peasant is perhaps not as verbally eloquent from time to time. perhaps or In other words a little more down to earth - A description I choose to take as a complement! and don't forget classically peasants were the ones who trained the horses to be safe for Royalty to ride- just couldn't write - (a bit like me realy! That and they were more expendable! So ........ love and peace to all and we should realy get together and work together for the benefit of the horse. Derek was once asked what his goal or outcome was and the answer was on the lines of "I would like the horse world to be such that if I were to come back as a horse I would feel happy and fairly treated." Amanda
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 15:14:13 GMT 1
Well 'amen' to that, Amanda!
Heather
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