joanne1
Elementary Poster
!!! Maddison & MaGIc !!!
Posts: 88
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Post by joanne1 on Jul 22, 2007 15:46:00 GMT 1
Thanks for everyones comments. I think we lost it a bit somewhere but hey i have learnt a few things so thanks very much. I don't know this craig fella so please can someone let me have name of his website then i can take a look and see what he's all about.!! Somebody probably mentioned it before but with 45 replies i think it might take a while to find.
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 15:52:28 GMT 1
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 22, 2007 15:55:38 GMT 1
Craig's website is www.classical-equitation.com.. However as you will see he is based in Seattle US of A .. However Derek Clark and his partner Jo host his UK clinics at Stow on the Wold.. Derek's website is under his signature.. I think from memory there is a Craig clinic comming up in early August.. Would highly reccomend it .. go with an open mind and be prepared Craig as posted above is not very accommodating or tactful but does have the horses best interest at heart.. which is why he feels soo strongly about the methods we use to educate horses (very like Monty himself in that respect.. I think)
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Post by Catrin on Jul 22, 2007 17:09:12 GMT 1
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Post by Amanda Dolby on Jul 22, 2007 17:40:05 GMT 1
and to simplyfy the whole thing from the thread that Catrin has reminded us of "It's is very simple but it's not easy" hmmm that covers most stuff to do with horses and.... life to be honest eh? Takes a bit of practise. Look forward to seeing you there.
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Post by myhorsefanny on Jul 22, 2007 18:44:03 GMT 1
Would highly reccomend it .. go with an open mind and be prepared Craig as posted above is not very accommodating or tactful but does have the horses best interest at heart.. I am really sorry to stir things up again but.... I do have a problem with you stating this to the public who are largely unaware of what goes on in reality. The only way I know this is my relative lives in Seattle and went to his establishment. His horses had SADDLE SORES from the saddles not fitting correctly. How is that having the horses best interests at heart? Especially as then he goes on to argue one saddle fits all and it is the riding that matters. So taking his logic - does this mean his riding is below standard? This is the last I will say on this subject but it saddens me, it really does.
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joanne1
Elementary Poster
!!! Maddison & MaGIc !!!
Posts: 88
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Post by joanne1 on Jul 22, 2007 19:06:54 GMT 1
Lusitanica, My sisters horse is a dwb which has been trained to advanced medium, we have had him since a yearling. On having one of her lessons back in January my sisters instructor thought Olympus wasn't quite right in his going! So with a few visits from the vets the bowing technique, man and visits to the "back man" it came about that some of his vertebrae where out of sync! He has been out of work for a while then end of May was told he was fine again to bring him back to work. Somebody mentioned that lunging wasn't good for a horse and may of caused the problems. Lunging is a part of my sisters training always with side reins. she was taught these ways by different trainers some of which have represented our country in different dressage competition. Always Olympus is lunged to be long and low to stretch out his back! He was back in work for a couple of weeks and again is UN sound. When he is flexed to the right in trot but going straight he is UN sound but on the circle he is fine. He is fine in canter and walk. When flexed to the left he is fine. My sister is beside her self. So thats why i put the thread on. Can i just say thank you to everyone i Don't know this Craig guy so if someone could let me have his web address then i can have a nosy!! Thanks for all the comments i think i have learnt something! If anyone has any advice on Olympus I'd appreciate it. Next thing to try is MRI scan.
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Post by lucitania on Jul 22, 2007 22:50:31 GMT 1
Joanne, that sounds quite bizarre, poor Olympus! Have the vets got no idea? I think the MRI is a great idea, I am pleased that your sister is willing to go that far. Can I just ask what the qualifications of this 'backman' are? There are so many cowboys out there who somehow seem to establish a good client base, in this case (or in any case where vertebreal misalignement is suspected) I would really have the horse seen by a qualified and registered chiropractor or an osteopath.
Which leg is he unsound on? Do the vets have any diagnosis so far? This sounds quite interesting (despite obviously being distressing to the owner), I would love to hear how he gets on and how the MRI goes.
As for Craig Stevens.... I don't know him, I know that in certain circles I have dabbled in he is hero-worshipped, and anyone who puts themselves on this kind of a pedestal makes me a bit suspicious. If he indeed rides all his horses in one saddle and also claims to have the horse's best interest at heart.... well, stick him in a pair of shoes 4 sizes too small and when he compains, tell him it's good for him, really. I can't believe some people, I really can't!
This is just hear-say from people who have 'studied' under him, so may or may not be true, but apparently he claims that he can get a knacker's-yard horse to do GP moves in one single session. (I assume this is while using his 'magic saddle'). Anyone who understands one iota about biomechanics and physiology would also understand that the moves involving such deep collection require some serious conditioning and suppling of both muscle tone and the supporting structures. This takes months, if you are really starting with skin & bones. When I hear people making claims like these, they immediately lose any credibility they may have had in my eyes. Even attempting these moves on a horse who is seriously unconditioned (and especially if it is to wow the crowds) is tantamount to cruelty. And I don't do or buy into cults and refuse to hero-worship anyone- this is the attitude I have come across with many people in the 'Craig Cult'. I don't mean anyone on this DG, I am talking about people I have come across elsewhere who have been rather fanatical followers of Craig Stevens.
I have also, unfortunately, seen photos of Craig riding a fine-boned little horse, who IMO should not be carrying such weight. I have no problem with people of all sizes riding, but let's stick to horses who can carry that weight!
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2007 23:12:15 GMT 1
myhorsefanny, Your first post seemed quite genuine and I expressed my sincere regret that you had not found your experience of working with someone who you say had once worked with Craig Stevens to be fruitful. You may recall I was also quite happy to share my own feelings about some of the things Craig may choose to do where my own choice would differ. Your second post, however, seems to me to be of a quite different nature. I would like to simply ignore it and allow everyone else to draw their own conclusions. Since Craig is not here to defend himself, however, and as you are also questioning my personal integrity since I am clearly associated with him, I guess it falls to me to say something - lest anyone out there feel that complete silence were somehow to be taken as any form of agreement. I will, therefore, simply state that I have never once in all of my visits over a number of years seen anything remotely like a saddle sore on any of Craig's horses. Perhaps you would like to put this quite serious allegation (based, apparently, totally on hearsay) to him in person while he is in the UK? If you would like to step out from behind your cloak of anonymity, I'd be delighted to introduce you. Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2007 23:16:55 GMT 1
Dear Lucitania, There's nothing really much to say then, is there... I do wonder, though why it is that the people who wish to slate Craig only ever seem to do so on the basis of hearsay, rather than first hand experience and always do it from behind a pseudonym. Derek
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mally
Novice Poster
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Post by mally on Jul 22, 2007 23:40:17 GMT 1
Hi myhorsefanny, I'm with you on this one, I read your post with great interest, a friend of a friend has also had dealings with Craig with very similar experiences which I absolutely agree is very sad. It concerns me deeply that there are people out there who are extremely confident and can steer people into their way of thinking and gain trust from others who are seeking guidance or who have limited experience and knowledge who don't know any different. I just hope that Craig is not one of these people. I have been involved with horses for 30 years and see it time and time again how people are so keen to learn which sadly causes some to follow the wrong path and only see things through rose tinted spectacles. Of course you always hear the negative about people first and I also have an open mind. I had a look at Craigs website and unfortunately, the picture that I kept going back to was the black horse, I certainly would of not put someone of his build on the horse for sure, I really thought that this was a before photo and I was going to find an after photo to show how the horse improved but sadly I didn't. You just have to view Anja Berans website p23513.typo3server.info/index.php?id=33&L=1 there is just no comparison at all!! I would really love to hear and most importantly see that Craig has the horses best interests at heart and that he concentrates on very correct gymnastic work for developing and training horses and that he advocates and teaches quiet and seamless riding enabling both horse and rider to be a partnership in harmony! But it concerns me deeply that he is happy to put the same saddle on every horse regardless of their type and build. Anyway I have said my piece
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2007 23:40:42 GMT 1
I am going to try to make it up to Craig's next clinic on the Saturday, Derek, a)if I can get staff cover, and b)if you will have me and I promise to behave myself? ;D It wont change my opinion about his beliefs in saddle fitting, which belie his claims to have the best interests of the horse at heart, but it would be interesting to see for myself, the work that he is now doing here, several years down the line. And I dont use a pseudonym!! ;D Heather
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Post by suewhitmore on Jul 23, 2007 0:16:17 GMT 1
I am going to try to make it up to Craig's next clinic on the Saturday, Derek, a)if I can get staff cover, and b)if you will have me and I promise to behave myself? ;D Me too, but I'm not making any promises..... You could use this image of you I found, tho'
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Post by suewhitmore on Jul 23, 2007 0:32:29 GMT 1
I think I am being a bit dim here. I was taught that side reins are only used on a horse being lunged to prevent the head swinging too far in onto the circle. Only the outside rein has any effect on the horse, and in fact, IMO, that rein should be identical in effect to the outer rein when you are long lining on a circle. They should be loose enough to allow normal movement of the head - certainly should not be in anyway be briniging the horse's head down to get some form of outline. One of the problems I find is that ordinary cheap commercial side reins are not long enough to allow correct fitting on anything other than a smallish pony, you'd be better off using bale twine. So when did the use of side reins change from being a gentle support that only came into effect if the horse turned too far in to a method of cranking the horse's head down? I sometimes feel I've been asleep for years..... And why is it always this OR that? I have never claimed to be a horse trainer - but my groundword toolkit contains long reining, in hand work, lunging, free schooling and trick training. IMO, all have their place and are not in any way mutually exclusive.
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joanne1
Elementary Poster
!!! Maddison & MaGIc !!!
Posts: 88
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Post by joanne1 on Jul 23, 2007 7:13:00 GMT 1
Thanks sue, we were taught with side reins that the out side rein was to stop the horse going out through the shoulder( so you don't just have a horse that is flying out toward the fence). The inside rein to be slighty shorter to cause a flex to the inside then the horse will work to the out side rein. So then once you get on your horse it has been given in plain english without a rider who might be gobbing him in the mouth or not correctly giving aids. This type of lunging i found a skill to get the back end also coming through and giving a slight elastic feel down the line to encourage suppleness, and to let the horse have a good stretch of the back. As the aim to get the horses head as low as possible. I do alot of ground work but my sister does not!
Lusitanica I Put the "backman" as i didn't want to mention any names but this guy is meant to be one of the best in the country and travels far and wide i will pm you info then maybe you might of heard of him and tell me if the information i am given is correct. Thanks joanne 1
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