Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 20, 2007 9:55:05 GMT 1
Hi Heather, Blimey, this is turning into an epic thread! My fingers are hurting from all the typing this morning ;D To answer your question: I'd first want to make sure I wasn't doing or using anything that would encourage the horse to overbend. Then I'd have the horse choose to "straighten" his/her own neck by having the horse move with a lengthened walk. I'd be looking to have the horse bring its own nose in front of its ears - extending forwards and down, rather than down and back to avoid the pressure of the bit. It would probably require the walk be about one and a half hooves worth of overtrack to achieve this - and I might well have to be "on the horse's case" a little to break out of the old pattern of shuffling along with a little walk. This is one reason why I'd personally choose not to use side reins for this work. If the horse did "the good thing" and stretched out, I don't think he'd be very impressed if he then bashed into a bit. It would be a pretty good way of introducing the problem, in fact, in the absence of any rolkur. IMHO, using side reins does certainly address the appearance of the head & neck, but potentially at a cost of ignoring what else is going on in the horse's mind. As I mentioned somewhere else - how long would any sane mind keep pushing on a closed door? After that, I'd begin working to have the horse learn to elevate - more or less a la Baucher, I suppose If you'd like to see the results of this approach, we've got one here (17hh "ex-killer" Hannoverian) that we "made earlier", as they say on Blue Peter... He's such a sweetheart now! ;D Best wishes, Derek PS: How's the weather down there? We're wearing flippers this morning! PPS: If you do come round I'll show you my Blue Peter Badge! ;D
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2007 10:11:24 GMT 1
Most horses 'know' all the work we ask of them, in my experience Derek. Have you ever read Franz Mairinger's wonderful book 'Horses are Made to be Horses?' In it, he quips that he knows perfectly well how to wash dishes, his wife just has to get him to do them when she wants him to! That is how I feel about horses. They move laterally in normal movement in a field, they piaffe and passage when excited, I have seen foals even doing one time changes in play, and my stallions will do some steps of spanish walk, especially if challenging another horse.
So do you now teach riding professionally? I hadnt realised that this was the case, and you are taking clinics now? I would love to come along to one of your own clinics to see how you interpret the classical work, as you were interested enough to come along to our EE conference!!
Heather
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2007 10:32:54 GMT 1
PS- would love to see your Hannoverian, Derek. Is he the difficult one that you had with Adam and Nicole for remedial training? One of my saddle agents was there with her horse, at the same time as you- Helen Newey. Would you say that this work was the real turning point for him, or the work you have done since with Craig, or a combination of both? I too, have specialised all my life in retraining horses that others have made difficult- Lusitano, Sudi is the latest one, and he has been exceptionally dangerous in that he had no idea that he was trampling you underfoot if something scared him- he had put Becky in hospital within a month of us having him! He was so bad that our vet suspected him of having a brain tumour, and was about to send him up to Berkshire for a scan. I said to let me let him down mentally and physically for three months first, and this is what we did, only starting work again in long reins, and not under saddle. My first so called 'difficult' horse was an Arab stallion, when I was 16 years old, and he taught me so much. He had been virtually unable to be backed, and had been thrown out in a field, almost abandoned for two years. He ended up being so good, that he acted as escort for his new owner's children on their ponies, out hunting! Over the last nearly 40 years, I have helped retrieve many horses whose minds had been damaged by poor training or rough handling. It never ceases to amaze me how forgiving they are, and how often, those who have been most difficult, develop the greatest bond. My horse Butch, was about to be put down as a chronic rearer that went over backwards if you asked him to face a fence, or out hacking, tried to get him to turn at a junction and he didnt want to go that way. But he had been evented to intermediate level, with his pelvis badly out, and he associated being jumped with extreme pain, even long after it was resolved. He had been owned by two elderly ladies who bred racehorses, and they loved him dearly, but were unable to ride him and were disbanding the stud and retiring, and so felt it kinder to have him put down, than to find him another home where he might either kill someone or damage himself. I rang them, and couldnt get through- they had been on the phone to the knacker. I got through afterwards, and begged them to come and meet us and see our place- then in Essex. They did so, and I went over to meet Bucth next day, and brought him home. He was rising nine. In the ensuing nineteen years he was with me, until his death from sudden liver failure, six years ago, he never once reared with me, because I never placed him in a position whereby he mistrusted me, and I was able to event him again, only at RC level, and also did advanced side saddle equitation on him, which you dont do, in your right mind, on a rearer!! He became one of my best ever schoolmasters, and I still miss him. But there is a further twist in this tale- when I went to see Sudi last year, I saw him advertised in H and H, and rang about him. He had already been for sale for a month- I had been lecturing in Australia- and when I rang, the person who was selling him, a vets wife and dressage rider up there, said that few people could ride him, which is why he was still for sale. I was going up to Suffolk to my saddle makers the following week, so said I would call in to see him. My friend Lucinda Evans and myself drove up there, and as we came off the A12, I remarked to Lucie that it was very close to where I got Butch. As we drove to our destination, I became aware that it was looking every more familiar, even though I hadnt been there for 26 years. We turned into the yard, and I said to Lucie that this in fact, was the very place I had been to, to fetch Butch. I walked round into the yard, and Sudi had actually been moved to the wash box as they were so short of space. I asked where he had been stabled previously, and he had been for the five months resident there, in the very stable that had been my old boy, Butch's stable, where in fact, he had actually been born. It seemed that I was meant to have Sudi, and whilst I have wondered on occasions, if dear old Butch has meant me to join him prematurely !- Sudi is now 75% better than he was. It will take another year to fully gain his trust and acceptance, and at my age, I do sometimes wonder if I want to ride horses like this now!- but the rapport and relationship that you have with them at the end of it all, is so very special. Heather
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Post by Catrin on Jul 20, 2007 12:17:39 GMT 1
... Here's a puzzle... Why is it that the huge majority of people get stuck at the lower or medium levels of dressage when "grand-prix" is considered to be "basic training" for any horse in the classical schools? Choose an answer... a) those horses are just "special" b) grand-prix dressage can only be done by "special" people c) it's easy when you know how... and if it appears "hard", then there's something you don't yet know... Two things astounded me when I went to my first dressage competition in a tiny village in Austria: 1) they had a Grand Prix test; 2) there were so many people, from the local liveries, who'd entered. It was like seeing the Medium tests here. Most of the horses were warmbloods, all of the riders were amateurs, all the horses could achieve the movements fairly well, some of the riders were awful. The answer to your question must be in there somewhere.
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2007 13:49:49 GMT 1
One of the answers is the lower level test themselves, Catrin- they actually prevent progress! They encourage a young horse to go on it's forehand, for a start, and there is also still a strong mentality that says that lateral work, for instance, shouldnt be started until your horse is 'calm, forward and straight', without realising that lateral work in walk is the best straightening exercise of all. And it is just that- an exercise! People tend to get bogged down in thinking of movements as the end result, not as a means to an end, and these movements will require many months, sometimes years of gymnastic training to enable a horse to reach the strength required to perform such movements. My Lusitano stallion Rei, was very weak behind when he came over from Portugal, and it has taken a long time to perfect passage, probably another year, because his movement is not naturally 'knees up' as many Iberians. His cousin, Sedutor, however, learnt passage in two weeks, and it is already three quarters of the way to being a really copybook passage. He finds it easy! But in normal dressage schooling, the horse would not be taught this until PSG level! My Hispano couldnt extend until we taught him passage, so each horse is different, and we would use the movements as exercises in themselves to improve other movements. I think this is the difference, but then there are huge differences in the training methods within the classical schools themselves, just to confuse things still further! But what I loved when lecturing at Equitana in Germany earlier this spring, was that so many breeds other than warmbloods were performing the higher level work, maybe without the huge paces and expression, but performing them nonetheless. And the riders were having such fun showing them off! That for me, is what it is all about! Heather
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Post by Amanda Dolby on Jul 20, 2007 14:39:00 GMT 1
Hi Derek - thanks for the mention. It is raining so much here I am tempted to get the diving gear out! Heather your comment on how do you train a horse that has been trained with rolkur or has the habit of over bending is very pertinent to me at the moment. I am currently working with a clients horse for this very reason. she is a big warmblood x she "arms" herself by overbending and going "behind the bit"- this lack of control is truely frightening and her poor owner was rather more than a little nervous of her. Er well she used to. ;D She is still a work in progress as is a very sensitive lady and looks for ways of release from pressure- even the slightest of touch and sometimes even mental pressure! Most of the progress has been made in hand and on the single long line as this is where she has felt more confident - allowing the nose to come forward and arch the neck outwards. Allowing the push from behind by developing the shoulder in etc We are now work on elevation and there has been no repeat of the over bending arming. I find many horses that are "german trained" (looking for a better title but choosing that phrase for now) are so used to being held together with gadgets and /or hands and legs that if you ride them as we do with decent of the hand and leg the feeling can be akin to riding a blob of not very well set jelly - very alarming. Also have an ex killer horse - though he does have flash backs - he is 22 now I got him when he was 18 - you can regain the mind but it depends on the horse and how he has reacted to any previous abuse or agressive training etc Would love to write more as this is a very interesting thread but I have to continue with my business plan for a possible horse heaven that is on offer for lease - please keep fingers crossed - all of those who know me! Amanda
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 21, 2007 0:42:41 GMT 1
Hi jennyb, Just saw your post, it nearly got lost in the crossfire ;D I knew you centered riding people were smart lol I'd love to come and watch Francois again but I have a clash in September with some of my other work. Perhaps next time... I'll keep you posted about clinics, etc. Derek
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 21, 2007 1:31:00 GMT 1
Hi Heather, Blimey, we've a had a day of it! Spent most of the day plugging holes and unblocking pathways for our two "new rivers" (we are now an island!), then got a call from one of our neighbours who wasn't so lucky and had water flooding into her house. Several sandbags and much mopping later... Anyway, we are having fun with our new "indoor water complex" as someone described it. A great opportunity to work on our X-country skills ;D Yes, Perry, the Hanno I mentioned, is the horse we had staying at Adam & Nicole's They were a great help in starting the turn-around. Even when Helen saw him he was a heck of a lot happier than when we started. Please say "Hi", by the way, we haven't see her for ages. In many ways, he's the reason we ended up finding Craig - we couldn't find any other way of getting the ridden work to move on, despite trying many approaches (some of which we talked about when we met you ). In the course of sorting him out we had to re-learn (or just plain learn, in my case ;D) a whole approach to riding and training that puts the horse's mind first - which is what makes it such a good fit with the IH way of doing things. Jo keeps threatening to write a book to tell Perry's story... I gather, from chatting about Craig with a few people at your EE conference, that some may feel learning how to use just one aid at a time is "a bit complicated". It certainly does require the rider to abandon their pride and the cultural fear of making mistakes, but it's having discovered just how easy things get after making that investment that drives us to help others have the same opportunity to discover what we've had the good fortune to learn. The problem is that if, in riding or training, we cover our "mistakes" up by using multiple aids, the horse still knows we made them. Unfortunately - generous as they are - some horses will just tolerate this, while the others get labelled as difficult, dangerous, lazy, ungenerous, untalented... I know it's probably just our imaginations, but we can't help feeling that Perry (and Janek, & the others...) keep telling us not to keep this old and almost forgotten approach to ourselves... Derek PS: we're also sending our best wishes for you & your dad!
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2007 9:30:56 GMT 1
Hi Derek, Hope you are not too underwater- it looks TERRIBLE upcountry, and I feel very fortunate to live on a hill!! The village below us used to flood every year, even twice in a week, on Christmas Dy then New Years Day of all times to do it, and thankfully now with the new flood prevention barriers in place, it no longer happens, and our bottom field with the river running through it hasnt flooded since. I understand the principles of Craig's aiding system, and my own French trainers have all trained legs without hands, hands without legs. Desi Lorent in particular concentrated on 'decontract the legs', something which I still very much adhere to ( not sure that is the right term, used with 'decontract ;D!) in my own riding. But what concerns me is the musculature in the horses shown on Craig's website, is not at all what I expect in a well schooled horse. The black horse, for instance, he is riding in piaffe is very 'upside down' and weak in the back/back end, a very common feature in horses that are ridden and trained Baucher style, but without the immense skill required to do this work correctly, and why I and fellow trainers, have misgivings even about Philippe Karl's DVD's. He is a Master, without question, and the end result of his work is very impressive, but when not carried out correctly, it can produce a very distinctive shape in a horse. I saw this in several of Craig's long term pupils horses last year at an event where they were demo'ing, and also in some of his former students from Scandinavia, now trained by my friend Rodrigo da Costa Matos, rider and trainer at the Portuguese School of Equestrian Art, and Morgado Lusitanos, Lisbon. I would love to see some pics of your horses and any others of Craig's long term students, Derek, that show correct musculature. When Craig asked me some years ago, to organise clinics here for him, I asked to see videos of him riding, and also the horses he trains. I did not think this an unreasonable request, as I will never reccommend trainers whose work I have not seen, and why I have visited trainers all over Europe to watch them work. But Craig resolutely refused to send me any video- he didnt need to, he said, 'his reputation was such that he didnt need proof'. All very well, I said, he hadnt a reputation here, and I personally, needed proof. I am not 'knocking' him out of spite! I only reccommend trainers whom I know to treat the horse humanely, and whose work truly produces harmony and finesse in horse and rider, two words that, were Desi's absolute criteria for equitation. I also do not believe that someone who weighs as much as Craig can fairly expect a horse to lift it's back, especially with some of the small horses he rides. It is all very well referring to his weight, as well as his Brooklyn accent!- almost as a marketing ploy, as it states on his website, that he is not what you would expect in a classical trainer!! I may be speaking out of turn here, but as someone who has had to watch her weight all her life, and eats generally very frugally in order to maintain a reasonable riding weight, I find this to be a very poor excuse!! When Craig produces some video of horses that he has trained, and proves to me that his system works, I will be the first to reccommend him, but until he does, I will reserve judgement. Heather
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Post by myhorsefanny on Jul 21, 2007 10:59:33 GMT 1
I am new to this site but been a lurker for a while. I had to join to comment to this thread. I used to have lessons, here in the UK with a Craig instructor. My horse HATED it. The theory sounded quite good. But the practice was awful. We had lessons for 6 months and none of it clearly made sense for our horses! I can see how it causes the upside down shape Heather talks about. The only horses I have seen trained this way have an upside-down appearance - big saggy belly, weak backs and necks. The opposite to what they should be. To me, it seems cultish. I know that some of the Craig'd instructors are very much into Strasser trimming too (another cultish activity). I saw also that Craig does not believe in saddle fitting and uses one saddle on all - what is that about? He believes riding is the important thing and if you can ride well it does not matter about saddle fit? What a load of nonsense! Unbelievable in this day and age!!!!
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 21, 2007 11:08:54 GMT 1
Hi Heather,
I have tried for quite some time now to keep a completely open mind, but I must confess I'm beginning to wonder if there's something of a desire on your part to turn people away from even seeing Craig's work firsthand and judging for themselves.
I can't, of course, speak to anything that may have happened between the two of you in the past, and I do appreciate that Craig is not a "perfect" communicator in every respect - to be honest, I've yet to meet anyone who is!
I would respectfully suggest that there is an awful lot more to the approach Craig recommends (and it is not "Craig's way" but rather a very old approach) than hands without legs, legs without hands. Of course, mere words are not a very effective medium for communicating the precise detail of very subtle feelings in the body which is one of the reasons I was keen to see you work in person. I would have to say that I am left puzzled by some of the choices you make if you are as completely au fait with the nuances of Craig's work as you suggest.
I guess it's fairly clear that you and he are pursuing different paths in the art of equitation. I'm sure there's room for both in the world and, as I've said before, I think you both have so much good to offer people and their horses.
I'm also puzzled by your comments about "incorrect" musculature on the horses trained in the french manner. Without wishing to get into any arguments about it, I've watched the particular horse you mention (in the photo on Craig's website - which shows piaffe rotating about the centre with reins in demi-tension, quite a neat demonstration of self-carriage, I believe) perform all sorts of advanced work with Craig in the saddle and I wasn't aware of any evidence of weakness in the back end. Jo may be able to tell you more about him since she has also ridden him herself.
Now, of course, I do recognise that we all see what we want to see, depending on the beliefs we have in place before hand - I can only say I don't understand how that horse would be able to perform high airs like the Levade in the elegant manner he does without having developed the musculature he needs in order to do so.
I hope that my "record" of posting on this site will bear me out when I say my intention has never been to imply that Craig is "right" and that anyone else is "wrong". All I hope to do in raising and answering questions is help provide an opportunity for anyone who is interested enough to do so, to observe or try this approach out for themselves and then draw, as Jo, I and many others have done, their own conclusions about how they wish to ride and train their horses therafter.
I dare say it won't be for everyone, just as Jo loves her tea and coffee and I prefer beer!
With all best wishes,
Derek
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 21, 2007 11:44:58 GMT 1
Hi myhorsefanny, Welcome to the board! I'm sorry to hear that you and your horse didn't have a good experience. Of course, I have no idea who you were working with or what went on. (and I definitely don't want to stir up any slanging matches, so I'm really not asking you to name names). Just for the record, though, I'm not a fan of Strasser trimming (my wife's actually a qualified EP) and we are both big fans of having a saddle that properly fits the horse. You'd have to take it up with Craig directly to get his views about the saddles he uses. To be fair though, I agree that's a choice he makes that puzzles me too. From the conversations I've had with him on the subject, I think there was a time when he rather overreacted to people who he thought believed that all their problems would be fixed just by changing the saddle. I dare say he could go about it in a more thoughtful fashion, though. I dare say I've mentioned this before, but is anyone 100% perfect? My own experience is that horses go best when ridden by a rider in-balance on a saddle that really fits well (we're a major customer of Kay Humphries ;D, much to the dismay of our bank manager! ). But I've also discovered along the way - much to my surprise I have to say - that poorly-balanced riding in a very well-fitting saddle can actually be worse for a horse than well-balanced riding in an average-fitting saddle. With best wishes, Derek PS: [modified to add] One thing I forgot to say is that, whenever I come across something that is totally alien to what I have already learned or believe, I really make an effort to genuinely understand it from the other person's shoes. In this way, I'll have a chance to learn things they may know that I would otherwise have missed. Assuming it's something more than pure finances or lazyness, I'm genuinely still trying to understand the origins of the idea many people have that one saddle fits many - it's not just Craig by any means. I remember Adam and Nicole telling me about someone who came all the way from France to ride on one of their courses. He brought his own saddle with him at some expense and when they said he couldn't use it and gave him one of theirs, he promptly turned on his heel and went home! He'll never know what he might have learned if he'd looked past that area of disagreement and explored what else was on offer...
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2007 12:26:30 GMT 1
I hope that given Jill's very erudite lecture on saddle fitting last weekend, and given that I now see you are a customer of Kay's- you would realise how incredibly important it is, to permitting the correct musculature to form, Derek. I know that Craig is far from alone in thinking that one saddle fits all, but this doesnt excuse it!! Would the people who think this way, use the same size pair of shoes for everyone in the family, even though they dont fit, believe that they shouldnt damage the feet? I am not trying to turn people away from Craig's methods without them even seeing them, but I have seen enough of the end result, at least so far, to reserve judgement. It was precisely Craig's stance on saddle fitting some years ago when I was in conversation with him on the internet, that turned me away from advocating him. I would never, ever advocate a student going to a trainer who did not consider the comfort of the horse. It may be marginally true, that a good rider can mitigate for a poorly fitting saddle, but it is inexcusable, if the rider knows the saddle doesnt fit and continues to use it. I also had a huge argument with Craig- oh yes, we go back quite a long way- some years ago on the Internet, regarding my use of the simulators. I use them, for reasons which you have now experienced having had a sit on them, and which I feel saves the horse a great deal of discomfort with a novice rider bouncing around, or even an experienced one who has not grasped the true elements of sitting trot or canter. He more or less branded me as the anti-christ of equitation, saying it was 'sacrilege' to use a machine, and absolutely ridiculed me on the Internet, saying that he could do anything with a real horse, better and faster than I could teach with the machines. Anyone who knows me, knows that this is a red rag to a bull, so I challenged him to meet me anywhere in the world, with the simulators, and real horses, and see how effective the simulators could be compared with teaching on a real horse. He as usual, blustered his way out of it, saying he had no need to prove his skills, so why did I? I am sorry, but that black horse on the website photo, just hasnt the correct musculature for an advanced horse. It matters not which manner, French or German, classical French as in De La Gueriniere, or Baucher, the horse should end up with strong and rounded, musculature. Anja Beran's horses are trained entirely in the French manner, despite being German!- but compare the musculature of her horse, a Luso stallion, below: With respect, Derek, your own experience of any other method than Craig's is very limited, by your own admission. I think that with nearly 40 years of teaching and training under my belt, and observing trainers from all classical schools- I am reasonably well qualified to comment knowledgably. It concerns me that people who have very little riding experience in general, pre Craig, are out there teaching now, and as I have said before, this rankles bigtime, those of us who have spent many years, and thousands of pounds, and often travelling thousands of miles, to learn, not to mention teaching literally thousands of riders and working with hundreds of horses over that period. It has been hard enough to re-establish Classical ideals in the face of competition, over this last 30 years, without potentially having credibility reduced by amateurs with little training, purporting to be 'experts'. Experience also cannot be replaced by fancy words and phrases. Heather- probably best that I now say no more , and have undoubtedly said too much already- mods, slap my wrists if you feel it necessary- but sorry, couldnt keep quiet any longer.
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 21, 2007 13:41:53 GMT 1
I have just started reading the Phillipe Karl book – Long Reining the Saumur Method.. Having skimmed thro’ it (it looks really excellent with brilliant photo’s and illustrations) Phillipe Karl when working on the circle attaches the inside rein to the roller then leads it forward thro either a side ring on the lunge cavesson or onto the bit ring then it comes back to his hand..
Has anyone any experience of working on circle with this set up (outside rein is conventionally attached from Cavesson ring or bit ring back thro the roller and either over the horses back or round its haunches)?
Looking at the illustrations he only uses this setup when working on the circle but when describing figures thro the school in the “driving” position he then has both reins attached forward and leading back for obvious reasons.
Amanda re It is very special to see how my sister and her horse are progressing at last and escaping from the terrors of modern german training..
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 21, 2007 13:49:52 GMT 1
so why the rest of the post (which is completely off topic) This thread is about methods of lungeing and long reining and their pros and cons.
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