dax
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Post by dax on Jun 15, 2007 18:35:26 GMT 1
Just to confirm to you that I am NOT flufflybunnies, although as think you can tell we know each other in Rl..no comment on how she came to be on here ;p. How many of you have been shortlisted to represent your country in europe?
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 18:50:00 GMT 1
canadiantrotter, I wonder if these behaviours are just bad habits that have been allowed to establish themselves over a period of time. It is difficult to correct their behaviour all the time and sometimes things creep in that aren't dangerous or a problem, just irritating at the time so we allow them to continue? Young animals, by their nature, play. In my opinion your colt was play acting with you, a young horse may do this to a stallion or any other member of the herd and I'm sure would smartly be put in his place. I agree with what you have said in both cases. The gelding I had raised from a foal and we had a close bond and because his behaviour was not dangerous or a problem I allowed it to continue by fluffing it off or chasing him around the paddock to get my lead back, which quickly became a game to him. Once he was aware that if he took the lead from me and ran the other way he would make me chase him so he continued to intentionally take the lead from me when he saw fit or felt like playing over a long period of time. Yes of course the colt was playing and he did get put into his place so as not to do it again. But I also believe that both of these horses were capable of intentionally doing something to get a reaction that had nothing to do with base instinct, dominance or survival.
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laura
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Post by laura on Jun 15, 2007 18:50:46 GMT 1
it really really gives ones head the washing machine sydnrome doesn't it.... it is such a complex topic as we dont want to create any fear yet there are situations where perhaps a little fear might be what keeps us ( equine and human) safe ..... fear of deep water , fear of stepping on snakes. ...... and we have to learn to deal with fear too ... and without introducing what causes the fear in a controlled situation how can we teach equine or human to deal with it then when we take inot account thats its also how the "receiver" perceives it, the situation gets even worse. ;D ;D ;D although it relates to humans as they are the ones that can give verbal feedback ....... I was always uncomfortable smacking children as it is not something you can "take back" if you get it wrong and misuse ( even unintentionally) then it can damage relationships. It is mostly also an emotional response when we feel "wronged" rather than an incentive to stop harmful behaviour. so from an early age I attempted to respond to behaviour that I viewed as unacceptable by "time out" .......child to bottom of stair till all calm then discuss / apologies as necessary. The principle adapted appropriate to age and "punishments" varied also and related to the "offense" if possible. Yet when I was discussing this with my now grown up children recently they had said that when they were younger they had wished they had been smacked instead They hated having to discuss situations, they said it "dragged out" the situation. However they said it did make them think after they got over the angry bit and appreciate what we as parents did. The smack would have been over quick and although sometimes it would have stopped the behaviour they would not have understood why or have been given alternative choices. the other human principle I would try to put into equine behaviour .... if possible distract / offer a positive alternative instead of punshing. eg When sharer was riding Bonney I often heard her say "NO" when Bonney jogging with eagerness to trot ( not exactly punishing her but telling her to stop doing something) - so I advised her to ask Bonney to "walk" instead .... giving Bonney something positive to do. I work with people with learning difficulties and challenging behaviour ... it can often be dangerous to respond to unwanted behaviours with NO .... and physical punishment is NOT allowed ... so we have to be thinking all the time as to how to defer / avoid / react to unwanted behaviours safely. Far better to avoid the situation entirely...... and have responses prepared for eventualities ....... that's not to say these are successfull 100% time ..... and I have the scars to prove it ;D ..... but sure have the incentive to be aware of the principles all the time ! mmmmmm rabbitin on again ;D
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Post by Catrin on Jun 15, 2007 18:51:17 GMT 1
... Firstly, i think you are vastly overestimating your horses emotional and intellectual capabilities. Unlike dogs or monkeys, horses are creatures of very basic intelligence. They are capable of understanding some things, but not on any grand scale. ... I and many of my clients, know this to be untrue. Here's some surprising evidence of things that horses do know. Anna Wise of the Boulder Institute of Biofeedback working with a "Mind Mirror" an EEG machine to measure states of consciousness, developed by her mentor, British psycho-biologist and biophysicist Maxwell Cade, produced some fascinating results. She mentions this in her book The High Performance Mind: Mastering Brainwaves for Insight, Healing, and Creativity Tarcher/Putnam, 1996 "...I was standing in front of a group of people talking about our discoveries and discussing this particular horse's difficulties. I explained that this horse could produce only theta and delta and was unable to produce alpha – whereupon the horse immediately produced strong alpha. When everyone laughed, I said, "O.K., but she can't produce beta." When she immediately produced beta, no one laughed, because our mouths were all open! Time prevented us from experimenting further with this particular horse. I still wonder what would have happened if I had said "O.K., but she still can't produce an awakened mind." (p. 213)
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dax
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Post by dax on Jun 15, 2007 19:04:00 GMT 1
yes, but you believe you can communicate with horses through thoughts. I do not believe you can so I would not really take any of that evidence to me personally as evidence. Others will
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 19:26:17 GMT 1
... Firstly, i think you are vastly overestimating your horses emotional and intellectual capabilities. Unlike dogs or monkeys, horses are creatures of very basic intelligence. They are capable of understanding some things, but not on any grand scale. ... I and many of my clients, know this to be untrue. Here's some surprising evidence of things that horses do know. Anna Wise of the Boulder Institute of Biofeedback working with a "Mind Mirror" an EEG machine to measure states of consciousness, developed by her mentor, British psycho-biologist and biophysicist Maxwell Cade, produced some fascinating results. She mentions this in her book The High Performance Mind: Mastering Brainwaves for Insight, Healing, and Creativity Tarcher/Putnam, 1996 "...I was standing in front of a group of people talking about our discoveries and discussing this particular horse's difficulties. I explained that this horse could produce only theta and delta and was unable to produce alpha – whereupon the horse immediately produced strong alpha. When everyone laughed, I said, "O.K., but she can't produce beta." When she immediately produced beta, no one laughed, because our mouths were all open! Time prevented us from experimenting further with this particular horse. I still wonder what would have happened if I had said "O.K., but she still can't produce an awakened mind." (p. 213) Is this response not directly contradicting the idea that a horse can react in an "intentional" manner then? I don't believe you can communicate with an animal through thoughts either. I believe that after having known the animal for a certain period of time and creating a close bond, that through repition of certain reponses to certain behaviours they can then pick up and remember what you would expect, hence the "you can read my mind" or "I know what that animal is thinking".
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Post by Catrin on Jun 15, 2007 21:06:27 GMT 1
... Is this response not directly contradicting the idea that a horse can react in an "intentional" manner then? I don't believe you can communicate with an animal through thoughts either. ... Anna Wise quotes her EEG research as evidence that the horse is capable of intellectual thought, in response to comments about it. There is, as far as I know, no scientific evidence of a horse physically responding to a thought. Though there is some anecdotal evidence of certain responses in certain animals. The most significant one being the squirrels who were simultaneously learning puzzle feed mazes in universities in USA and UK. They had been learning the mazes for several weeks, but wiithin hours of the first squirrel solving it, all squirrels, on both sides of the Atlantic solved the maze successfully. None of them could see another squirrel at any time.
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 21:09:09 GMT 1
off topic I want a squirrel perhaps it's something to do with length of time it takes to solve a problem in the species? feel free to ignore me, I have beer and no, I won't share
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Post by Yann on Jun 15, 2007 21:29:37 GMT 1
In dead simple definition terms punishment is where something is added or removed to make a behaviour less likely, negative reinforcement is where something is taken away to make a behaviour more likely. That's how I understand it anyway. Whatever our view of them both clearly work with horses, some more than others. As far as 'being cheeky' or 'trying it on' I'm not sure. I used to be, until I loaned a tiny exmoor pony for my daughter who was the most persistent thing going. She was incredibly quick at picking up and responding to the right sort of approach to all sorts of issues such as being caught, leading and standing still, but was constantly on the look for loopholes to run through. It seemed to me that it was more of a personality trait than a challenge to herd order, or a failure to provide adequate leadership. I don't know if the nativeness / wildness in her heritage had anything to do with it but it does appear to be a recurring thing with natives. I can read my lovely Tb like a book in comparison
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 22:16:24 GMT 1
It seemed to me that it was more of a personality trait than a challenge to herd order, or a failure to provide adequate leadership. I like the way you said that Yann and agree with you.
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Post by fluffybunnies on Jun 15, 2007 22:25:03 GMT 1
lol, i'm not Dax. We live about 45 minutes away from eachother though [depending on how slowly Dx insists on driving ] I'm sure she didn't mean offence however it did come across in a slightly insulting manner, regardless of the intention. No harm done, either way In relation to the scientific tests, clearly none of them have been conclusive, and the incident with the delta and beta waves could simply have been a coincidence? The horse didn't exactly understand the brain science and choose to contradict the scientist in question. And yes, squirrels are awesome, i think we should all have one Mines called momo ;P
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Post by mandal on Jun 16, 2007 11:41:15 GMT 1
it really really gives ones head the washing machine sydnrome doesn't it.... Too right Laura! ;D..........You left out intention.........and don't forget.......are we misinterpriting how we believe things are percieved by the horse? ................Arghhhhhhhhh
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Post by malikariverbaby on Jun 16, 2007 11:44:14 GMT 1
Sorry to go on about River but I have seen him push the white pigtail isolator at the top of the post until the tape touches the metal poll and hey presto the current is cut. If the tape is on the outside of the poll, he will push the poll until it touches the tape. Surely this counts as intention and has nothing to do with instinct.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Jun 16, 2007 12:18:59 GMT 1
Yes, and I recall work by Marthe Kiley Worthington which demonstrated character and shape recognition in horses. I would suggest those who believe horses are incapable of thought look at her research.
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laura
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Post by laura on Jun 16, 2007 12:59:03 GMT 1
oh horses def capable of thought ;D - how else would they be able to be "trained" in the first place......they can work out how to get what they want, they can solve problems and they IMO also have emotions like "frustration". I think , I dont know ;D that what most folk mean when they say horses are not "naughty" intentionally are that the motives for the behaviour some of us class as naughty are more related to horses instincts or learned behaviour than to "p*** us off ". Horses do have "moods" even if it may be related to hormones ( well we humans have that too ) , the weather or a response to our moods !!!! One thing for sure , its hard enough to get into another humans head to know what they really are thinking / experiencing ........ what chance a horses or is it ......... most of what we "know" are educated guesses until scientifically or empirically proven .... and as derek is fond of pointing out in principle .... what is real anyway oh dear I am in a whimsical mood ;D well River is a clever lad .............. maybe he needs more playthings to keep his busy mind more occupied ;D mandal did i miss out intention AND perception this time ............. its the washing machine effect
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