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Post by mandal on Jun 16, 2007 13:10:42 GMT 1
Laura I think the point I was trying to make was are our perceptions "real/correct" if that makes sense. I don't think you left out perception...............I think you've covered enough to keep my poor brain on fast spin for the next few days!!! ;D
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laura
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going for a splash
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Post by laura on Jun 16, 2007 13:36:38 GMT 1
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Post by Catrin on Jun 16, 2007 14:40:20 GMT 1
who knows what is real mandal ;D ...... we could all be inside the bauble on the cats collar My cat has no collar, therefore I am nowhere. In fact neither cat has a collar, so I am nowhere else as well.
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Post by mandal on Jun 16, 2007 15:07:08 GMT 1
.........and there I was thinking it was the spin cycle on the washing machine making me dizzy! ............I'll be with Catrin, nowhere then. ;D What is that peom??? As I was walking down the stair...........(I think that's the first bit.) I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish to h..ll he'd go away!!!!!!!!!!! .................... Are those men in white coats real?
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Post by malikariverbaby on Jun 16, 2007 16:19:32 GMT 1
Yes I think they are and they are coming for all of us This topic in controlling my life at the moment even OH keeps wanting to know whats being said. Yes River def needs more to keep him active. He will 'play with everything. Salt licks are footballs, buckets are handbags to walk aroung with, water containers are drums, fly fringes/head collars/rugs on other horses are to be pulled off. You get the idea. I know he is not naughty intentionally but he does know what hes doing and he is having a jolly good time. I'm going to call it 'mischeive' because it helps me not go crazy with his antics. I am going to start some more serious ground work with him next week. Hopefully that will interest him.
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Post by grayson on Jun 16, 2007 17:30:00 GMT 1
River would get on well with my 11 year old TB. Eldar, too, wants to play with anything that he can carry or throw.
If a person deliberately behaves badly in order to annoy some one else, this displays mental imbalance. It is not normal behaviour for an emotionally intact person. Children may sometimes do it, but a well mannered child never would. A child who does this has learnt the behaviour from an adult whose perversity it accepts at the norm.
Taunting is an intellectual activity from a perverted mind. Horses display natural behaviour or learned behaviour as a rule. Why on earth would anyone imagine they might become as perverse as we are?
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laura
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Post by laura on Jun 16, 2007 19:02:19 GMT 1
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Post by Francis Burton on Jun 16, 2007 22:27:46 GMT 1
Just to clarify... I certainly believe horses are capable of thought, and of experiencing emotions - though not some of our more sophisticated human ones - such as embarrassment, shame, pity, bitterness, nostalgia, awe, and some forms of love. I know this is for Dax but FB with regard to rudness and cheekiness we can't be sure who is right. Horses play and play has always be associated with intellecual behaviour. If horses can grieve can they not also be ' rude or cheeky'. Humans will always personalise their animals and we will only ever really be able to judge them from our own standards. You're saying that, because a horse can experience emotion 'x', they must be able to feel 'y' and 'z' as well. I think each emotion has to be judged separately. We all have our own ideas about what emotions horses can and can't experience (maybe the topic for another thread). An objective view may be impossible because, as you say, we are so inclined to personalise. There are some basic emotions I think that horses clearly possess (though I might be wrong!). For others, perhaps we can only go as far as to say they behave as if they possessed them. Regarding 'trying it on', I do think that horses frequently test and push boundaries. This is entirely normal. Sometimes this manifests in behaviour that looks like 'trying it on' (or being 'cheeky' or 'rude'). I would have no objection at all to the phrase, except that it allows shades of meaning that in my view go too far in the humanizing direction. Sometimes when people say a horse is 'trying it on', they seem to be implying that the horse is deliberately and intentionally setting out to annoy and to cause trouble. Some people may believe they in fact do that - but I don't. Yes, re: neg Reinforcement and punishment. Do you mean "yes, 'negative reinforcement' is just a PC term for punishment"?
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dax
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Post by dax on Jun 16, 2007 22:47:54 GMT 1
yes.
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Post by Yann on Jun 16, 2007 22:54:43 GMT 1
Seriously?
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dax
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Post by dax on Jun 17, 2007 0:30:44 GMT 1
yes
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 17, 2007 3:14:21 GMT 1
Sometimes when people say a horse is 'trying it on', they seem to be implying that the horse is deliberately and intentionally setting out to annoy and to cause trouble. Some people may believe they in fact do that - but I don't. Do you mean "yes, 'negative reinforcement' is just a PC term for punishment"? Totally agree with that Francis. Trying it on in my books does not mean a horse is purposely annoying or trying to cause trouble. ... Will someone please tell the dopey Canuck what PC means?
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jun 17, 2007 8:01:56 GMT 1
PC stands for politically correct - i.e. a way of saying/doing something 'nicely' so as not to offend anyone!
Would it be a gross over-simplification to say that negative reinforcement is 'before the event' and punishment afterward e.g. when training to lead setting the horse up to walk into the pressure of a halter which allows the horse to release the pressure itself when it does the right thing = negative reinforcement. Dragging the horse around by the halter after it's barged through you = punishment.
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Post by Catrin on Jun 17, 2007 8:02:07 GMT 1
Since living in the UK this last six years, I have discovered that one is not allowed to say things like, "Isn't that person (of over 6' 6", 195 cm) tall?" It is considered 'politically incorrect' to draw attention to anything either side of the norm.
The general requirement of political correctness seems to relate to persons of other than ethic origins in UK, but also applies to those of minority groups of any sort at times. In fact in UK the 'norm' has now been extended to embrace 3 1/2 standard deviations either side of it and only excludes things which at present can be defined as extra terrestial. Everything else in UK is the norm.
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Post by Yann on Jun 17, 2007 9:50:36 GMT 1
If you honestly think punishment and negative reinforcement are the same thing then I think you're missing an important point :)Being able to understand the difference may give you some important additional insights into your interactions with horses. Have you read Perfect Manners by Kelly? There's a very readable chapter in there where these terms are defined. Catrin, what are you on about? PC should just being about using respectful language, nothing more. As it says in Perfect Manners, the language we use shapes our attitudes to things. The actual problem is that people who don't understand that take it too far and give those who do have their own agendas the opportunity to attack the principle.
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