Punishment vs negative reinforcement (fao dax)

[Francis Burton]

I am starting a new thread because the rules of the debate do not allow a series of responses, and I don't want this to divert from the debate.

dax said:

I do love how a horse is supposedly not capable to 'trying it on' but is capable of 'resentment'.

It depends how you define them I suppose. I don't use 'trying it on' myself because it can imply a deliberate intention to cause trouble on the part of the horse which seems implausible to me - I think that is beyond their mental capacity. In relation to horses, I would understand 'resentment' to mean a persistent lack of willingness to cooperate coupled with a tendency towards overt aggression.

If a child does something naughty, you tell them off, if they're rude/cheecky etc. I feel it is the same with a horse.

Do you think that horses are truly rude or cheeky, as opposed to merely behaving in a way that resembles rudeness or cheekiness in children? Are similar things going on their heads?

Providing you are accurate in the timing, and I believe it is easy to be accurate, it should reinforce the message 'NO'.

It may be easy, but then why do people get it wrong so often? I see it happening all the time - I am sure others do too.

I see the dually as punishment, pressure causing discomfort is used to modify the behaviour. It's simple. Others however do not see pressure as punishment for some odd reason. Negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement are just like politically correct words bandied about.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between punishment and 'negative reinforcement'. You seem to be saying that 'negative reinforcement' is just a PC term for punishment. Would that be correct? Actually, they are opposites! Sure pressure (and the Dually) can be used to punish, but is not itself punishment - it depends how it is used.

A horse is a big animal and has to know the limits. In a herd they will get punished for behaviour which is out of line. I am sure they are still 'friends' with their herdmates.
I do not want to be a 50% partner with my horse, then he is trying to make the decisions. The horse has to know the human makes the decision for everyones safety.

I don't have a problem with that point of view, as you have stated it. Just out of curiosity, though, do you think the horse should never be allowed to make any decisions for itself when with humans, that every move and action be dictated (micromanaged if you like) by the human?

I think those objecting to punishment don't want to make their horse dislike them. Well...I'm sure the horse would be happier in the wild and all, free, but that's not going to happen..

You seem to be arguing that because a horse can't be truly free, it can't be truly happy, and therefore whether a horse likes us or not is not worth bothering about. Is that really what you are saying? Getting a horse to do exactly what you want and like you is, in my opinion, better that getting a horse to do exactly what you want but have it dislike you. It may be harder, but the quality of the end result is superior. How can you have willing cooperation when the horse dislikes you? Or do you think that, as an ideal, willing cooperation is overrated and/or unachievable?

[dax]

ok, several things here. I have had one pony who had a similarity to what you describe as resentment. Willing to cooperate, but aggressive. Came over the door at you, never actually bit, just threatened. We had a rule of no hitting, carried a stick ridden but never needed as he was honest as they come. He got worse after going for schooling, having jumped out of the sand arena and brokene my collarbone, where he came back with spur marks! He by the time he had to move on yes, ears still went back, but he tolerated me, and that was about it. Resentment, perhaps by your description. I'd say wanting his own way, but treated very similarly I guess
I think horses are cheeky and rude, cheeky being an affectionate term. Rude being walking over you. Caught a loose horse the other day (sisters) and he proceeded to bulldoze through me. Had to put the rope around his nose just to hold him. That's rude IMO. And an example fo dangerous behaviour brought on by him deciding, as he caem galloping along a road having broken loose.
Yes, re: neg Reinforcement and punishment.
I tend to allow mine to make their own decisions to a certain extent, but they know I have the final say. I think you would be surprised at how laid back I am about what they are doing/where they are (eg bring them in the barn and let them wander off until I've sorted one out)
No, what i'm argueing is that it wouldn't be a horses choice to be domesticated, but they are. A horse will not like being punished, so hopefully it will not do the behavior again.

[malikariverbaby]

I know this is for Dax but FB with regard to rudness and cheekiness we can't be sure who is right. Horses play and play has always be associated with intellecual behaviour. If horses can grieve can they not also be ' rude or cheeky'. Humans will always personalise their animals and we will only ever really be able to judge them from our own standards.

[canadiantrotter]

I think Francis meant this thread for Dax and others who believe that indeed a horse is intelligent enough to feel different emotions and purposely test, push, tease, attempt to get away with or "try it on" as Dax would say.

I really cannot understand how people can observe a horse doing all of the things that Dax, I and a few others have mentioned above in a herd of their own kind and then say that they don't have the capability to do it to humans as well.

[gillmcg]

The behaviours I see horses displaying to each other seem all connected to reproduction and survival e.g.
reproduction -
1. two males (stallions or geldings) up on their hind legs boxing with their front legs or their heads i.e. I'm bigger and stronger than you. Human attribute - 'playing'
2. moving the mare or pushing others away from her. Human attribute - protecting my friend.
3. the mare squatting and squirting in front of others. Not sure I should go into the human attribute we would give this one!!!! ;D I think 'flirting' would suffice!
survival -
1. I'm going to drink first so push off! - Human attribute - aggression
2. This is my feed so push off! - as above plus greedy
3. This is a human who might have something edible so push off - Human attribute - ah! he loves me!
4. I can move your feet - my survival is assured over yours - Human attribute - bossy

Can you tell me what you observe in horses that makes you believe they are able to test, push, tease, attempt to get away with or "try it on"? It may be that in a 'stable' herd where each horse understands their role and there is no competition for food/water that some behaviours are 'half-hearted' offerings based on the above instincts to survive and reproduce.

Horses also have the instinct to 'get along with' everybody - (anything for an easy life) so much of their interaction with humans is, I believe, learned behaviour and not instinctive.

Humans have a complex method of filtering information they receive - I don't think horses have that, hence their lightening reactions. Yes, they can 'work things out' and use their previous experiences to help (or hinder) how they react to different stimuli but I don't think they set out to be rude or cheeky. They set out to find a way to avoid what they don't want and get what they do want - in the case of the horse who walks over you, he's only doing what he'd do to a herd member whom he didn't perceive as someone important. If the horse was loose on the road his adrenalin was already up I would have thought and that would make his survival more important than the person trying to catch him - by denying him his flight response you've blocked the horse's instincts. Not for one moment saying you shouldn't have caught him!!! but I don't believe he was being 'rude'.

[gingerloon]

I don't think horses try it on or are cheeky or rude as such, when these perceived behaviours rear their heads I believe it is down to the horse not being sure of it's place in the "herd", i.e., not trusting, respecting or fully understanding the handler.

I would imagine a horse is perfectly capable of resentment, if they have tried over and over again to tell you that what you are doing they either are uncomfortable with or don't understand what is required but the same behaviour is exhibited by their handler over and over again without reading the signs from the horse then I would imagine resentment, confusion and distrust will be foremost in the horses mind.

Liz is currently working with Seren and after sorting out my very confusing body language what I perceived to be bad manners or her lack of listening to me, actually turned out to be Seren trying very hard to understand but I wasn't making any sense. It needed someone to come along and sort out the lines of communcation.

I do think we over-humanise horses and their emotions. At the end of the day they want to be fed, watered, kept safe and have a clear understanding of their place in the herd hierarchy, whether it is in the field or with the human handlers. Any of these out of place and the horse will be unsure and question everything to try and establish where his place is in the herd.

[Deleted]

Francis, you beat me to it. I was logging on to start a thread on the very same subject. I completely agree that there has been a lot of reference the pressure & release with do with the Dually as punishment where it is, as you say, negative reinforcement. It takes place before the horse's action, not in response to. It is a way of making a request, not a way of telling off.

Dax, do you mind if I ask where you are? If you are anywhere near an RA, I will willingly pay their call out fee for someone to come and show you what can be achieved by thinking of horses and their mental processes in a slightly different way. I know you won't like or accept this, but I just feel that your basic assumptions are not quite there. The pony you are describing sounds to me like he has some problems. He sounds unhappy, maybe even in pain, not just "wanting to get his own way". I actually feel sorry for him.

The horse who walked through you was, to use your term, being rude. I would say, though, that that was not his fault. He was doing his job of being a horse very well. If he has not been taught how to lead nicely in a way he will understand, that is not his fault.

There is a game we play on the psychology course. One person goes out of the room and the rest decide an instruction they have to give someone else, something like go and sit on the chair in the corner. The catch is that they are only allowed to say "no" when you get it wrong. So, if the person comes back into the room and walks in the wrong direction, they are told "no". But that could be don't walk, walk but not there, or even don't stand. You only know that you're doing something wrong. Equally, you haven't the faintest what you have to do instead. That is the effect of punishment. The horse may understand he's done something wrong, he may even manage to understand what it is, but he won't know what to do instead.

If, on the other hand, you can say, don't do that, but do that, life becomes clear. That is where positive and negative reinforcement come in. Both give you the key to what you are to do, the reward for doing it right. This is why a correctly used Dually does work, as does a correctly used leg aid, etc. and why punishment doesn't.

[malikariverbaby]

gillmsg-I think there are other examples of play. But also play is acting out adult behaviours. Also setting out ways to avoid doing things they don't want to do and get what they want (sorry don't know how to do the quote thing) surely thats exactly what being rude or cheeky is. It might not be with the complexities that a human brings to it though.

I have to say that I am really enjoying this DG at the moment. Living a very isolated live here, I do not have to chance to get into really interesting dicussions, sometimes going days without speaking to a human other than OH.

The joy of education and language (another of my passions) is that there is no definate right or wrong answer. It is though discussion and experience that we develop our methods (or ways of saying things) and understanding. Though the posts on this site I have amended some of my practices but also been confirmed in others.

I do hope more people post on the punishment thread, so that all of us can make an informed and objective decision when voting.

[janetgeorge]

gillmcg said:

3. the mare squatting and squirting in front of others. Not sure I should go into the human attribute we would give this one!!!! ;D I think 'flirting' would suffice!

It is actually a misconception that 'squatting and squirting' automatically means a mare 'wants a bit' - and anyone who relies solely on that evidence when deciding whether it's time to cover a mare will likely get themselves and the stallion kicked into the middle of next week! It is submissive behaviour - you see it in mares who ARE in foal - both when they meet a more agressive mare, or a gelding, or a stallion. Its main purpose is to give the other horse a smell to interpret - a stallion recognises the smell of a pregnant mare, a receptive mare, or a mare who is just 'teasing' him (although of course that's not her purpose - she's saying - 'Not today, matey!' And if he ignores her comment, she'll kick him.)

[malikariverbaby]

Thanks Janetgeorge you've just illustrated my point perfectly.

[Skippy - RIP Banana]

I think horses are more intelligent than we give them credit for!

[gingerloon]

indeed, they are very intelligent, but in horse terms, in my opinion it is wrong to apply human emotions/intelligence to a horse and treat the horse as indicated by those emotions.

[dax]

LizP-No RA's around me I'm afraid, I'm N. Ireland!
Said described pony is sold now, he was a funny one, a real character, boss of the field, taking dislikes (funnily to people I didn't like) , protective of his space, loved being clipped/mane pulled/shod etc. but hated being groomed. I don't think he was unhappy once he knew how life stood, he was never hit, very affectionate in fact in his own way. Did join up for me, jumped for anyone, but never would stand my sister who teased him when he first came (poke the biting horse type thing!) and would charge down the field at her. I assume that is a good case for resentment being possible.
I think they just test the boundaries. They have to know what is too far. It comes from different perceptions I think here, I view my horses as pets, but expensive ones who need a purpose. I would not make one do a job he didn't like, and I think you can tell by their attitude and general behaviour if they enjoy life and isn't that the main thing?
There are things people on here do that I think is downright cruel, but they think is acceptable. Different opinions.
IMO I see negative reinforcement as very similar to punishement. And pressure when they do something wrong, which makes them uncomfortable is to me the same as the use of a stick to indicate that was wrong.

[fluffybunnies]

I personally cannot understand that some people believe horses are incapable of "trying it on"

It is both natural and common!
We once had a 12.2hh pony which was as cheeky and rude as they came. he continually ran over the top of both me and my parents, and was awful to ride. While adults were watching he would behave perfectly. As soon as they turned away he would drop his shoulder and buck the child off. he wasn't "unwell" or in pain, he was just an ass.
We had a lesson with my instructor and when my sister rode him into a certain corner of the arena, he began to buck. She came off, got back on, and he behaved perfectly, until she came to the same corner. He wasn't spooking, we walked him past it fine, but any faster and he misbehaved again. it took one single hit behind the saddle before he got to the corner and for the rest of the lesson he was perfectly behaved and quite happy to do what was asked of him. he was the definition of "cheeky" and "rude". Having discovered the boundaries, he was more than hapy to work within them.
You find this behaviour less common in horses because they tend to be less intelligent than ponies and because small children are much easier targets.
Anyone who says horses can't "try it on" should watch a small 12.2 class. There is almost always one of them!!!!
just thowing in my rather long two cents

[fluffybunnies]

i should also add that i am aware that there are plenty of cases where the horse is in pain and there is a root cause, what i'm trying to say is that it is naive to think there is never the simple explanation that the animal is being cheeky.