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Post by gingerloon on Jun 14, 2007 21:18:52 GMT 1
in my opinion, in horse terms, trying it on is testing the relationship/leadership with the handler/rider etc. This would be natural behaviour in a herd situation where a hierarchy wasn't fully established or where there is a competition for leadership or placings.
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jun 15, 2007 7:53:14 GMT 1
Thanks for that clarification Janet, just shows how we can all misinterpret the signals horses are giving......or accept the common intepretation without question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 7:55:56 GMT 1
If by "trying it on" you mean that the horse/pony has no good reason for being a willing partner and so would rather not be sat on by that uncomfortable child, then yes, they do try it on. If you mean that he normally feels he has to obey because stronger people who will force him, but then when he feels that constraint no longer there he no longer has to, then yes, they do try it on. Are they doing this just to be objectionable or "naughty" or more because they dislike what they are being made to do? Reading Dax's story above, I'd have every sympathy with a pony like this "trying it on".
Let me ask you this, how otherwise does your pony tell you he's unhappy? I would wager good money that most ponies who try it on would never have got to the stage of dropping a shoulder if they had been treated more sympathetically - with their feelings coming above the needs of the child or the competition - early on. If only people would listen to them and consider their needs, so much unhappiness could be avoided.
And then what do they get for their unhappiness? Punishment. It is sometimes a sad thing to be a pony.
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Post by malikariverbaby on Jun 15, 2007 9:19:23 GMT 1
I agree with Gingerloom's definition. But I'm not sure whether she feels that this is cheeky, rude or'trying it on' in the terms we are talking about here. You all know about River's escapes and, although I know it is a simple answer, I really think sometimes that he is just being 'naughty' (for want of a better word). He will pull the fence down when in a big field with friends, lots of grass, water, shelter etc. He will pull the fence down in front of me. He put his foot through the bottom strand (which is not electrified) and seconds later its all on the floor. He will pull it down as I am trying to mend it. He will find the 5 metres of tape where the fence might not be working so well and pull it down. Even the electric won't stop him if he really wants to pull it down. When he's out (although he doesn't always go out of the field, just stands proudly next to his handy work -I know too much personalisation), he doesn't go far. I would love any theories!
Also one of my fav likl horses, Higloo, has this thing that he does. He starts to stumble when he is bored of the ride. There is nothing wrong with him. He will just act as if he is about to keel over. It really freaks some people out. They really think that there is something seriously wrong. But there really isn't. Its just something he does. Once he realises that the ride is not going to end he is as good as gold and all the fake lameness goes. Again theories welcome.
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dax
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Post by dax on Jun 15, 2007 13:19:16 GMT 1
LizP-how does my story make you have every sympathy with a pony 'like this' (like what) 'trying it on'?
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 13:33:44 GMT 1
If by "trying it on" you mean that the horse/pony has no good reason for being a willing partner and so would rather not be sat on by that uncomfortable child, then yes, they do try it on. If you mean that he normally feels he has to obey because stronger people who will force him, but then when he feels that constraint no longer there he no longer has to, then yes, they do try it on. Then we are in agreement.. "regardless of what the reason may be" .... that in fact a horse will indeed, "try it on".
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 14:12:06 GMT 1
Can you tell me what you observe in horses that makes you believe they are able to test, push, tease, attempt to get away with or "try it on"? It may be that in a 'stable' herd where each horse understands their role and there is no competition for food/water that some behaviours are 'half-hearted' offerings based on the above instincts to survive and reproduce. Yes I failed to add that I was referring to a "stable" herd where there is basically no competition for food or water and thus some behaviour can be related to play acting based on no longer needed survival instincts. Examples of certain behaviour with humans that I welcome your ideas for analysis.... - I'm returning to house from barn through front paddock with two cartons of eggs in my hands. Four month old colt decides to sneak up behind me, jump up and put both front legs over my shoulders. Survival instincts or he just wanted to have some fun? - I'm sitting on top of rail fence talking with groom with my back to the horses therefore ignoring them. Gelding comes up and smells me and then proceeds to forcefully push me off the fence and then runs off bucking and farting and begins to chase the other horses in his field. Survival instincts or teasing/testing to get a reaction? -(taken from other thread and an example of "trying it on") I had seven horses to take out and jog one early winter. My 15 year old son at the time was helping and asked if he could take one of the horses out on the track for it's routine 3 mile jog while I tacked up the next horse. I gave him my calmest gelding and told him to take him around the 1/2 mile track six times and then bring him back to the barn for his bath, cool him down and tuck him away. The horse knew his routine with his eyes closed and all my son had to do was hold on and go for the ride. Not too soon after they had left the barn I heard a banging on the sliding door and went to open it and there was the horse waiting to come in, (he had actually pawed at the door to be let in), and my son with a very perplexed look on his face. He told me that after they had gone around the first lap the horse had started inching closer to the offramp on each lap thereafter until finally on the 4th lap he just exited the track and headed for the barn. Only being 15 and not having the authority to use brute force or a whip on my horses there wasn't much my son could do except let the horse get away with shirking his work after being unsuccessful at stopping him using normal commands. I then got on the jog bike, turned the horse around and took him straight back out to the track to complete his training to reinforce who was in command and he went through his paces as if nothing had gone awry. There is absolutely no way this horse could not be "accused" of trying to see what he could get away with. He had been in training five days a week and racing on average 1 a week, (except when laid off for a rest) for 2 1/2 years and he knew exactly what was expected of him and because he had a less experienced driver behind him he took advantage of it.
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Post by malikariverbaby on Jun 15, 2007 15:34:29 GMT 1
Oh he could of course by playing, River that is.
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jun 15, 2007 15:52:10 GMT 1
- I'm returning to house from barn through front paddock with two cartons of eggs in my hands. Four month old colt decides to sneak up behind me, jump up and put both front legs over my shoulders. Survival instincts or he just wanted to have some fun? Did he 'sneak up behind you' or did you just not hear him? Sounds like he was trying the 'boxing game' that colts play as part of their 'dominance' behaviour. I certainly wouldn't think it was fun! Here I'd suggest he was showing you that he could move your feet (and your ass ;D). The fact you fell off the fence was probably a big surprise which led to the bucking and farting and pushing the other horses into flight. 'The horse knew his routine with his eyes closed and all my son had to do was hold on and go for the ride.' - and he knew that your son didn't so chose to take control and head back to the barn for an easy life (path of least resistance!). 'Only being 15 and not having the authority to use brute force or a whip on my horses there wasn't much my son could do except let the horse get away with shirking his work after being unsuccessful at stopping him using normal commands.'Good on your son! I assume you think that using brute force or a whip is asserting your authority?...or perhaps you meant you hadn't given him permission? Don't think the horse enjoys his training much by the sound of it or perhaps after 2 1/2 years he's just a tad bored? I guess it's difficult when you have seven to work to make it more interesting. I think the problem I have is that the arguments for a horse 'pushing, teasing, trying it on' suggest an intention that I really don't think is there. Sometimes, as in the example with your son, I think they just see a way to conserve energy and take it!
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pip
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Post by pip on Jun 15, 2007 16:06:15 GMT 1
My pony tried hard for about an hour to remove his grazing mask, rubbing on the fence, dragging it first forward, then b ackwards on the ground, and eventually managed to pull it off by hooking it round the hinges on the gate post. I had been keeping an eye on him throughout all his attempts and I knew the sitching would rip and I would have rushed out to help him if he looked like he was in trouble.
When he had removed his mask and I went outside the look he gave me could only be descripbed as triumphant - or that was my human interpretation of it. He looked pretty pleased with himself anyway and was looking at me!
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 15, 2007 16:53:37 GMT 1
Thanks for your response, gillmcg....
First of all I have no idea how to reply with a quote inside of a quote the way you computer literates do.. so you'll have to be patient with the long drawn out typing. ;D
No.. the brat definitely snuck up behind me as I watched him circle me a few times before he did it as I was curious as to how far he would go. I totally agree that he was playing the typical 'colt boxing game"... but I am not a colt I am a human and the one in command of the entire herd as he was fully aware by watching the other horses and in my eyes he was "trying it on" to see if he could dominate me. Again I am a human and he was aware of this through smell and respect shown by the rest of the herd on a daily basis. I didn't lose an egg by the way ;D.
In the case of the second scenario I should have also mentioned that the gelding in question made a habit of pushing me whenever my back was turned to him and I was not paying sole attention to him. He of course would usually do the typical foot stamping before resorting to the pushing which was always gentle.This happened in the paddocks, in shedrow when he was being tacked up or tacked down as well as other different cicumstances. In my eyes he was spoiled for attention and enjoyed being in the spotlight and would lose his patience if made to wait. He never did it in anger but more in the way of, "Hey, pay attention to me". This horse would also snatch the lead shank I would be carrying and take off across the paddock with it in his mouth whilst hopping around like a mad rabbit! If I ignored him and walked away he would come up and push me to gain my attention.
Third scenario... No I definitely do not believe using brute force or a whip is "asserting my authority", in fact my son or any other handler or groom that was put behind my horses were in fact ordered not to use that type of authority on any of my horses or they would answer to me. I meant that there was no way short of brute force that my son was going to be able to stop the horse from returning to the barn. The horse could be said to have chosen the path of least resistance but after I took him back out onto the track he went through his paces quite eagerly and happily without me even moving the reins or speaking to him and I doubt very much that he was bored with his training as with the majority of racehorses, loved his work. I likened this to the horse seeing what he could "get away with".
I see where you are coming from and respect your opinion of "intentions" not being there. But we will have to agree to disagree as I do believe that horses that have been in a sound and happy home for a long period of time with the same owner can intentionally act in certain ways for the "fun of it" or "because it just can", without it being because of herd mentality, dominace issues or for the sake of survival.
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 16:59:40 GMT 1
pip, your pony was probably uncomfortable in the mask and was relieved to remove it. He was probably saying, hey mum, plesae don't put that on again malik, I wonder if you pony has trained you to respond to his behaviour, or is he just playing? I've no idea LOL I bet you are a fencing expert now Could the stumbling be a lack of incentive and interest and he's just dragging his feet? Frightens himself when he nearly goes over and gets his act together? Unless there is an underlying physical problem. gillmcg, I think that's it in a nutshell, it's the "intention" that isn't there.
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Post by mandal on Jun 15, 2007 17:00:15 GMT 1
I completely agree that there has been a lot of reference the pressure & release with do with the Dually as punishment where it is, as you say, negative reinforcement. It takes place before the horse's action, not in response to. It is a way of making a request, not a way of telling off. I'm thinking again!! .........I'd just decided that on occasion I had used it (the dually) as punishment with a bargy horse..........mmmmmm was the pressure I used in response to her going to walk over me or did I ask her to step back before she came closer? Steam rising from my brain Lol
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:04:07 GMT 1
canadiantrotter, I wonder if these behaviours are just bad habits that have been allowed to establish themselves over a period of time. It is difficult to correct their behaviour all the time and sometimes things creep in that aren't dangerous or a problem, just irritating at the time so we allow them to continue?
Young animals, by their nature, play. In my opinion your colt was play acting with you, a young horse may do this to a stallion or any other member of the herd and I'm sure would smartly be put in his place.
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:04:42 GMT 1
I have to say, this has been one of the most interesting discussions on here and it really gets you thinking
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