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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:07:16 GMT 1
mandal, in my opinion, if your horse has already been taught that it isn't ok to barge through mum but then attempts to do it, you are reminding her where the boundaries lie and the pressure remains until she steps back. Yes it is, in a way, punishment for attempting to barge through you, but she also has the option to decide to remove that pressure by stepping away from you.
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Post by mandal on Jun 15, 2007 17:11:52 GMT 1
. It is difficult to correct their behaviour all the time and sometimes things creep in that aren't dangerous or a problem, just irritating at the time so we allow them to continue? . This (consistancy) and timing I'm constantly try to improve. It's hard to exercise self discipline with adorable shettie foals though. ;D Sorry didn't mean to go so off topic.
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Post by fluffybunnies on Jun 15, 2007 17:13:35 GMT 1
Liz P ->>> a few things in response - btw, when you said that " I would wager good money that most ponies who try it on would never have got to the stage of dropping a shoulder if they had been treated more sympathetically" were you talking about my pony or dax's? Firstly, i think you are vastly overestimating your horses emotional and intellectual capabilities. Unlike dogs or monkeys, horses are creatures of very basic intelligence. They are capable of understanding some things, but not on any grand scale. When you talk about my/dax's pony's supposed "Unhappiness" you not only make the presumption that we would make our animals unhappy but you assume that we would be incapable of noticing a real problem. I have no doubt that in my case the pony was not overly fond of his lifestyle, being a naturally lazy and ill disposed creature he probably wanted to spend his time in a field or raiding the feed bins. The unfortunate reality is that we as truly horrible people wanted him to work. All he had to do was trot about and pop the occasional 18 inch pole for a capable and quiet rider. Yet you decide that there must have been an underlying cause for the condition known to me as laziness. I have dealt with animals that had genuine problems as a result of stress and over work at a young age, and they were treated with nothing but kindness and understanding even when their behaviour was borderline dangerous. There were horses that i would never even have taken a whip near because of the abuse they had suffered, and yet you say you feel "sorry" for my animals? I also happen to know that if you instead felt sorry for Dax's pony that it was badly placed. I've never seen such spoilt and happy ponies in my life. Pigs in mud pale in comparison. I'm asking that you not be condescending enough to simply assume we were incapable of caring for and understanding our own horses, and that through the course of an online conversation you have the right to make those sorts of judgments. Liz, do you mind if I ask where you are? If you are anywhere near a therapist, I will willingly pay their call out fee for someone to come and show you what can be achieved by thinking of horses and their mental processes in a slightly different way. I know you won't like or accept this, but I just feel that your basic assumptions are not quite there.
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:14:50 GMT 1
LOL Mandal, I know.... when Seren looks at me with those big brown eyes ..... *sigh*
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Post by malikariverbaby on Jun 15, 2007 17:16:22 GMT 1
Gingerloom- God I really hope its not coz of me. I really try not to react but sometimes inside I am boiling. Maybe he like to attention. He does seem to have that oh there you are mummy I thought you would come. He is always so pleased to see me. With regard to Higloo there is no physical problem. It really is just his 'little trick'. We have observed him for the last two years and can't find a a different reason for him doing it.
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Post by mandal on Jun 15, 2007 17:17:10 GMT 1
mandal, in my opinion, if your horse has already been taught that it isn't ok to barge through mum but then attempts to do it, you are reminding her where the boundaries lie and the pressure remains until she steps back. Yes it is, in a way, punishment for attempting to barge through you, but she also has the option to decide to remove that pressure by stepping away from you. Yes gingerloon, I'm trying to understand what it is I'm doing in technical/posh terms after the debate! If she's nervous all the toys go out of the pram and her concentration goes out the window. I have used it to get her attention as well. At this stage with her I haven't found a better way as yet for me and her.
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:17:50 GMT 1
fluffybunnies, I think you have hit the nail on the head with your statement that the ponies are spoilt
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Post by fluffybunnies on Jun 15, 2007 17:19:37 GMT 1
can i ask exactly what you mean by that? lol,
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:21:48 GMT 1
ooooh Mandal, you are so describing Seren
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:23:34 GMT 1
fluffybunnies, I am seeing thelwell ponies all over the place LOL
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Post by fluffybunnies on Jun 15, 2007 17:32:04 GMT 1
lol, they're everywhere!!! ;D
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:41:15 GMT 1
fluffybunnies, just to say, i'm sure LizP wasn't saying that your ponies lack for anything and having met her in person I can be totally convinced she had no intention of being condescending, in fact she is far from that. She takes a lot of time to explain everything and has a wonderful way with horses, I have seen her work miracles with Seren and she really does take time to listen and understand her.
I'm sure the offer to pay for an RA to come out was far from an insult but a genuine offer to help broaden Dax's view on the situation.
I note you have only just started posting , are you Dax by any chance?
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gillmcg
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,948
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Post by gillmcg on Jun 15, 2007 17:42:09 GMT 1
Hey, well done for holding on to the eggs CanadianTrotter!!!! ;D It's great to hear how others see things - maybe try on their glasses for a little while to see more clearly through mine???
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful discussion this thread has engendered (guess we have to thank Francis B for starting this one and Catrin for the debate).....
The use of the Dually 'after the event' would consititute a punishment I guess? whereas allowing the horse to walk into the pressure itself..... Maybe I'll just stick with 'intention' - it's hard, but easier than all this analysing - my brain hurts..... ;D
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 15, 2007 17:47:05 GMT 1
gillmcg, just a thought ............
if the ground work has been laid down and it is clear where the boundaries are and on this occassion the horse decides to ignore that and barge, is that a valid "punishment" as the horse knows the boundaries and it is used to re-inforce that boundary? a reminder? rather than a random punishment that the horse doesn't know what it has been punished for?
oh lord, now my head hurts
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gillmcg
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,948
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Post by gillmcg on Jun 15, 2007 18:18:38 GMT 1
gillmcg, just a thought ............ if the ground work has been laid down and it is clear where the boundaries are and on this occassion the horse decides to ignore that and barge, is that a valid "punishment" as the horse knows the boundaries and it is used to re-inforce that boundary? a reminder? rather than a random punishment that the horse doesn't know what it has been punished for? oh lord, now my head hurts My head says no and my gut says yes!!!! Go figure! I can't do this anymore! If you're absolutely sure without question that the horse knows the rules and has broken/ignored them for no other reason than because it can then your intention will be clear to the horse - a reinforced NO! That punishment shouldn't engender fear as the horse will know WHY it was punished - to be honest I think that's how the Dually works and although it's a very useful tool I still feel a little uncomfortable about it. My head KNOWS that it's 'all about the release' but still.......
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