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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 3, 2011 0:26:24 GMT 1
This is a really good thread :-) I still don't see that it's the trim that's at fault though, How many horses did dr strasser ruin / or fix? How many did students of strasser ruin ? How many hooves are ruined by constant shoeing disabling the hoof from stimulating the formation of the hoof matrix ? I think there are many points that can be raised from this thread many points that are way above my knowledge level. Have you read the whole thread carefully? I am not given to exaggeration and actually one poster has stated her S. Trimmer provides a good 'safe' trim but doesn't trim in the manner described... why? I now believe this trim is (as taklishim says) based on some 'Veterinary' theory that appears to make sense but that has NO place in the real world. With further background information I am also coming to suspect that this Trimmer deceived and may even have 'groomed' this client which is extremely scary. I'm certainly not implying you are exaggerating mandal. I'm simply asking is it the trim or is it the trimmer. Most seem to be of the opinion it's the trim so I'm asking why do you think this ? You have answered honourably :-) and I thankyou for your honesty. Without differing opinions and if everyone agreed it wouldn't make for a great discussion group it would be very sheep like :-) I have no experience of having a strasser trim ( my horse I mean :-) ) but I am aware of horses that have been trimmed in this way with no Ill effect. This is purely why I'm asking I suppose.
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Post by wendyinfrance on Aug 3, 2011 8:28:32 GMT 1
The damage caused by shoeing is irrelevant to the discussion of the Strasser model of hoof function and its application via trimming. Personally, having also seen a Strasser trained trimmer in action - who, incidentally, said he did a modified trim as well - I'd rather have a farrier nail shoes on my horse than have it Strasser trimmed. And that says a lot, coming from me! In discussion during hoof clinics (not Strasser!) the issue was raised that, apart from the flawed model of hoof function and the flawed model of ideal form that came from that, a HUGE problem in the Strasser organisation's teaching was that it taught 'obedience not responsibility'. ie take this piece of plastic with the pre-set angles and dimensions and trim each hoof to match. The catastrophic effect for the horse was then re-interpreted as having done a good job. Even the minor signs of soreness were interpreted as doing a good job. I wonder what percentage of horses really did experience 'no ill effect' (and BTW, a trim is supposed to produce a positive effect..) Actually, if you want a good article on 'what to expect after taking your horse barefoot', there's one on the Easycare blog today blog.easycareinc.com/blog/notes-from-the-field/what-to-expect-when-you-and-your-horse-go-barefoot
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Aug 3, 2011 9:02:23 GMT 1
Brainwashing, cult like indoctrination methods, added to the fact that Strasser was/is a vet. Desperate people with lame horses would have been the first people to go to her, and if a vet tells you something will help your horse and that's what you want most in the world, you're likely to do what the vet says. There was always reasons for why the horses were lame during transition, some of them perhaps plausible at face value.
There's always going to be some difference between trimmers, even those trained in the same way, so you may get some who are more extreme than others. Some did see sense and modified their trims accordingly, but not all.
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Post by mandal on Aug 3, 2011 9:04:34 GMT 1
Malpractice is malpractice and should be acted upon where ever possible, regardless of profession or otherwise. This weekend I visited a yard where a remedial farrier had resected two ponies without the owners permission. When in Holland I visited a yard where a vet had removed the entire sole from a laminitic 'to see what where the pedal bone was'. When questioned they took the view that the horse would probably die anyway so no harm done. Strasser trimmers still exist and practice and strasser trimming courses are still being held, although I am not aware of any in the UK at present. The only way to be certain of anyone you are hiring is to seek references and ask for examples of previous work. IME exams and qualifications don't mean a lot. How else could one of the Olympic team vets diagnose laminitis as a sprain? And a similarly qualified colleague diagnose kissing spines when the horse turned out to have thrush? Get references! And a good professional will always explain what they want to do, why and seek permission before acting. Just re read this shudder at more horse horror stories. Good advice too. Steve, don't forget there have been many Doctors who practiced bizarre and fatal or debilitating stuff in history and murderous Doctors and healthcare professionals exposed in very recent history. Education and 'knowledge' does not mean anything in the real world regards safety of living things even if that knowledge is actually sound. No human is immune from bizzare and misguided thinking and even Hitler had many, many who agreed with him and many who just followed without question... In this situation you only need look at the horses and ask them and listen to them whether this is a trim that is 'healing' or just plain hurting. Would you be operated on at home with no bed or provision for pain relief after wards? One strange example this trimmer gave when questioned was... she pointed to her finger nails and said (words to the effect of) do you think this bit of nail (pointing to part of nail no longer attached to the nail bed that we all cut off) is any more dead than this bit. (pointing to nail attached to nail bed) At the time I was not able to think but my retort goes round and round in my head now. OK, let's rasp the first bit of nail and then rasp the second bit of nail and don't bother to tell me it hurts because I KNOW how far to go. In my opinion this one example alone shows a gross misunderstanding in the thinking.
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Post by LuckyRed on Aug 3, 2011 10:39:38 GMT 1
a few years ago I did a KC La Pierre trimming course and it was fascinating - but the most important thing I can remember him saying was 'do no harm'!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 3, 2011 12:03:53 GMT 1
Slightly off topic but related to vets... I once had a very, very highly respected vet come round for one of my (barefoot) horses who had a small bleeding wound on the side of his hoof just above the coronary band. We were very worried it might be a quittor, however, it turned out just to be that he'd somehow managed to get a piece of hawthorn branch about 1 inch long stuck in his foot and just missing the lateral cartelage. Two things amazed me about this very respected vets attitude: Firstly, as soon as he saw the horse was barefoot he assumed it must be an abcess and started digging away at the sole. I had to more or less literally wrestle the knife out of his hand to stop him. I asked him (politely) how far he was proposing to dig into the sole and he answered "until I find the pus"... After I'd persuaded him o consider that there mightn't actually be any pus because it might not actually be an abcess, he then started poking around the wound. Fortunately for us all he noticed that there was something in there and asked me if I had a small piece of wire he could use to poke deeper. I gave him an unfolded paperclip which he then proceeded to broddle around in the open wound. At this point my horse tried to kick him into the middle of next week and he responded by yelling at the horse to "stand still and stop being so stupid"... Now, after I'd persuaded him that maybe a bit of local anaesthetic might be a good idea, he then did do a top class bit of field surgery to get the bit of hawthorn out and clean out the remaining hole. But you have to wonder what kind of belief system had been installed in vet school to convince him it couldn't possibly have hurt when he poked an open wound with a stick! Beliefs are terribly powerful, especially when quoted by someone in a position of 'authority'.... if you haven't heard of the Stanley Milgram experiment, read this! www.experiment-resources.com/stanley-milgram-experiment.htmlDerek
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 12:15:55 GMT 1
Agree with Derek (as usual, lol, I must be brainwashed ) anyone who's studied human psychology in any depth will have come across the Milgram experiments and the Stanford Prison experiment. "Authority" and even just the perception of it is hugely powerful and does strange things to peoples minds. Social conformity also has a part to play, I can't remember the name of the leading psychologists in this area (A levels were a long time ago) but they showed time and time again, people will ignore cruelty, suffering and danger if everyone around them does and it's not about intelligence or morals, it's basic human psychology, people don't even realise they're doing it. It's scary stuff, but you can take a bunch of people on a Strasser course who don't understand much about hoof trimming but even if they see something they don't like, they will not question her judgement purely because of her position of authority (as a vet) and then due to social conformity, if one person thinks what she is doing is wrong they are very unlikely to say anything to either Strasser or the other attendees. They are most likely to think that because they are the only one concerned they must be wrong and everyone else must be right, and change their view accordingly and then go ahead and trim the feet how they are told, even if they knew it was wrong in the first place.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 3, 2011 12:24:35 GMT 1
Should I run a "Jedi mastery" clinic...? Lol!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 3, 2011 12:27:32 GMT 1
There's a much less painful version of the experiment you can do at work or in a shopping centre with a few friends... A few of you step into a lift already containing 1 or 2 passengers. Ideally there should be 3 or 4 of you. Without saying anything or acknowledging each other, just all face the back wall of the lift instead of the doors and see how many of the original occupants turn round too...!
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Post by taklishim on Aug 3, 2011 13:14:41 GMT 1
Beliefs are terribly powerful, especially when quoted by someone in a position of 'authority'..
absolutely and also agree Michelle's comments. It then gets repeated and repeated and becomes accepted fact. The Strasser period was interesting for 2 reasons. Firstly I had never learn about cult behaviour before and this was a cult demanding strict obedience. Secondly you learnt a lot about foot structure as feet break down and collapse with excessive over trimming. There are usually very few opportunites to watch normal feet seriously disintigrate over a period of time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 13:31:50 GMT 1
This link illustrates quite well: www.naturalhoof.co.nz/strasser2.htmlYes, clearly problems with the pre-trimmed heels, but scroll down to look at the photo of the "correct trim", done by Strasser herself. Yikes is the word that springs to mind. I know the clinic was nearly 10 years ago, but think the illustration is still relevant.
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oberon
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Post by oberon on Aug 3, 2011 13:41:44 GMT 1
What concerns me is that the trimmer in question states she is a trained Natural Hoofcare Practitioner......my own (excellent) UKNHCP trimmers used to use that same slogan But is has no mention of who she trained with or who she is affiliated with - so it also begs the question as to whether she is insured as well If she is not with any organisation, then there is no compaints/disciplinary comeback. Without this thread, we'd never know that she is a Strasserite
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Post by rj on Aug 3, 2011 13:44:37 GMT 1
No 'cult' doesn't come into it - honestly. Strasser dealt originally with some 'death's door' cases and her radical methods saved those horses. Therefore I think she must have come to believe that the methods must work on all. A friend of mine is an engineer & scientist, as well as a horse-owner. I remember him saying years & years ago that he had read her research and on paper it all made complete sense. It SHOULD work. However common sense told him the theory was flawed. This was at a time when a mutual friend was having her horses trimmed by a Strasser trimmer - someone we knew and liked. One brood mare had never been sound before this trim, and as she became heavily in foal her owner said it was the most comfortable she had ever seen her, even with the extra weight of the foal. Someone else at an NH clinic was working with her lame horse. It had an abscess - something that Strasser seemed to think was desirable rather than otherwise - & working would encourage the circulation to burst the abcess naturally. Horse survived!! And as I said many years ago when all this kicked off. I met a Strasser trimmer at the barefoot course I was doing. She was a very intelligent sensible & knowledgable person - likeable as well. I believe she was being prosecuted for cruelty at the time, so subject of a lot of media publicity, and there was some extremely questionable input on here at the time, with threats & violent language being used. Sometimes you have to separate the person from the deed (not always possible of course) What Strasser did do was make us all question & learn about correct hoof management, but I am quite sure that those who have opposite beliefs do so based on their knowledge and experience. I cannot understand how soaking hooves, encouraging flare/abscesses, and undercutting heels can possibly be correct. That doesn't mean I'm right. I too am a firm believer in the 'do no harm' ethos, but I am absolutely certain that no Strasser trimmer would willingly cause harm.
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Post by taklishim on Aug 3, 2011 14:00:01 GMT 1
She was a very intelligent sensible & knowledgable person - likeable as well. I believe she was being prosecuted for cruelty at the time,
I am shaking my head at your post rj. Perhaps I have just totally misread it. If so I apologise in advance. It seems to be " nice person, shame about the cruelty prosecution"
As I say perhaps I have misunderstood where you are coming from.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 14:06:42 GMT 1
I too am a firm believer in the 'do no harm' ethos, but I am absolutely certain that no Strasser trimmer would willingly cause harm. I doubt any person has ever trained as a trimmer and willingly caused harm, if you're that way way inclined you don't need to train to be a trimmer first, you could just go out and attack horses.
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