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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 2, 2011 18:31:10 GMT 1
Malpractice is malpractice and should be acted upon where ever possible, regardless of profession or otherwise.
This weekend I visited a yard where a remedial farrier had resected two ponies without the owners permission.
When in Holland I visited a yard where a vet had removed the entire sole from a laminitic 'to see what where the pedal bone was'. When questioned they took the view that the horse would probably die anyway so no harm done.
Strasser trimmers still exist and practice and strasser trimming courses are still being held, although I am not aware of any in the UK at present.
The only way to be certain of anyone you are hiring is to seek references and ask for examples of previous work. IME exams and qualifications don't mean a lot. How else could one of the Olympic team vets diagnose laminitis as a sprain? And a similarly qualified colleague diagnose kissing spines when the horse turned out to have thrush?
Get references!
And a good professional will always explain what they want to do, why and seek permission before acting.
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Post by taklishim on Aug 2, 2011 19:20:33 GMT 1
you can certainly use my post, Mandal and also any comments I made in my E mail. When they basically got run out of the UK some Strasser purists went abroad. They must be underground somewhere. I think in the UK they are so well known and BF is so much "bigger" now that they would have too many problems.
If Ireland is "backward" (meant nicely) to some extent it would be an excellent place for them. Strasser trimmers used to be very good at tallking. They were also rather scary and so the client did not feel they had the knowledge to say anything. The clients probably don't know very much anyway about trimming and it all seems very logical when you explain it. Unfortunately it just happens to be rubbish.
The DG was instrumental in getting rid of them and it really is a case of constantly exposing them. There is nothing on the web site of Jo Moss to suggest Strasser. It seems all lovely and natural horsey cuddly.
The other thing we learnt with Strasser trimmers is that you have to have something to put in it's place. That is where the UK had problems for a long while. The only other alternative was farriers. In Sept 2002 KC came over for the first time. It was probably another good year before any KC trimmers were available and they were very few.
If you warn people from going to Strasser trimmers you need a network of other trimmers to refer them to otherwise they feel they have no choice but Strasser.
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Post by mandal on Aug 2, 2011 19:28:40 GMT 1
Thanks again Pat. Yes her talk is all 'cuddly', friendly and extremely horse friendly as well as stating she has studied Jaime Jackson's and Pete Ramey's work and talked about paddock paradise, 'listening' to the horses etc.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 2, 2011 21:28:45 GMT 1
Like most I've heard the horror stories of the strasser trim. I'm not entirely convinced that the trim strasser conceived is as bad as the offending people who claim to be able to trim her way manage to botch. I think in reality dr strasser was very ahead of her time in hoof progression. She was also german which meant the English translation was taken literally very differently to how her meathods should have been taken. The people who attended her seminars where taught to maintain there own horses hooves in absence of a qualified strasser trimmer until one could come and trim. Instead many decided they were free to trim happily away without an ounce of endorsement from dr.strasser. I think the flawed translation had more than a small part in the destruction of her theory and much of her original theory's still hold very valid substance over traditional shod methods. I attended a seminar at reaseheath college last night on bare foot trimming and although still un supported theories from a veterinary point of view the information handed out was as much of a penny dropping experience as learning montys methods to start a horse. Also the methods discussed last night where not in anyway dis similar to the theories of doctor strassers original papers. Different enough to not attract the heat of bad trims by supposed strasser trimmers but close enough to show dr strasser wasn't a fool. The strasser trim wasn't the problem the people who claimed to be able to trim to her standard were.
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Post by mandal on Aug 2, 2011 22:18:55 GMT 1
Like most I've heard the horror stories of the strasser trim. I'm not entirely convinced that the trim strasser conceived is as bad as the offending people who claim to be able to trim her way manage to botch. I think in reality dr strasser was very ahead of her time in hoof progression. She was also german which meant the English translation was taken literally very differently to how her meathods should have been taken. The horsekeeping aspects may be useful and ground breaking at the time but this woman has studied 'Strasser' for 10 years plus and as I said, just prior to this trimming, had apparently stayed at Strasser's home. I do think she has a good grasp of what Strasser teaches as well as the practical ability. Believe me (and others with huge past experience) this set up trim is BAD for horses and their owners. If that isn't bad enough NO advice for after care was given or actually considered except a comment as the horse moved that 'her feet will feel different, she'll soon get used to it.' This S. Trimmer had to ask where the hoof pads the owner got immediately were purchased from... say no more. I honestly do not believe she was even aware pads existed.
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companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
Posts: 1,739
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Post by companymagic on Aug 2, 2011 22:24:45 GMT 1
I agree with whats been said on this thread. Just reading this trimmers web site and this struck me as odd. "Enforce a total change of lifestyle upon a creature who has spent the last 60 million years evolving to require a particular set of living conditions, and you produce exactly what we have today, horses with drastically shortened lifespans, and a”domestic” population of horses, 90% of which are to some extent unsound (crippled) *" Really I was under the impression horses lived a lot longer these days. And if 90% of horses are Crippled that means 90% of us have crippled horses! Really??
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Post by taklishim on Aug 2, 2011 22:42:46 GMT 1
Like most I've heard the horror stories of the strasser trim.
Were you around at that time? I didn't hear the horror stories I saw them. I can assure you they weren't stories they were the sickening reality for some owners as to the butchery that they had allowed someone to do to their horse.
he was also german which meant the English translation was taken literally very differently to how her meathods should have been taken.
yes we wondered about that for a long while. It was not the case. I discussed this with someone who had done her full course in Germany. One of the people doing the course was German but lived in an English speaking country so was totally fluent in both languages. She questioned S at length in German. I really do not believe there was a problem in translation and I don't think that anyone else did.
The strasser trim wasn't the problem the people who claimed to be able to trim to her standard were.
there are 2 points here. Firstly the problems created by Strasser trimmers were NOT caused by owner trimmers who had done a 3 day course who then went home and massacred their horses. There was a very simple reason as to why this did not happen. After the courses the "owner trimmers" went home armed with 2 knives and a rasp and instructions to trim. The method taught to them was extremely intensive hard work and they simply could not manage, either from the point of technique or strength to carve concavity into their horse's soles. Secondly the horses simply kicked them off.
Strasser trimmers were trained by her and it was a very lengthy and intensive course. Certainly not a matter of a few days here and there. If one trimmer had come back and done things badly you could accept that but when they all did the same drastic trim the only conclusion could be that it came from the top ie Dr S. I know that it did as I spent many many days questioning trimmers about her training. Also if she was not satisfied with their competance why did she certify them as Strasser Trimmers?
The people who attended her seminars where taught to maintain there own horses hooves in absence of a qualified strasser trimmer until one could come and trim
Well that was the theory. So I would expect that people attending her 3 day courses would be taught very basic trimming skills. How to use a rasp, a bit of mustang rolling, bit of lowering the heels or dealing with flare perhaps? Not so. I know as I went on one of these to try and find out what was happening. I had many years of experience both riding and trimming barefoot horses so feet were not new to me and I understood exactly what was being taught. I have no doubt whatsoever that the courses were run with S's knowledge and blessing. They were run by one of her qualified trimmers. The content as far as I am aware was pure Strasser. By this stage the Strasser organisation had learnt that the real money was to be made not in trimming but in running courses. No problem with that. A business is there to make profits.
Anyway, for me alarm bells started to run on the course when we were told that UK vets and the general public wouldn't understand when the horse was lame after trimming so it was best to keep it in a field out of the way. We asked about vet support and the problem appeared to be that they wouldn't really understand either. ;D
Anyway 1.5 days of theory and, armed with 2 new knives and a rasp we were let loose on a cadaver. This was the first time just about everyone had ever picked up a knife or a rasp. The trim we were to apply had been detailed in theory for us . We knew all about concavity. We have to carve out the sole to achieve it. Next problem was contraction. We had to do opening cuts. Then came the bars. We had to dig down to really get these out. Next were the heels. Low was the message of the day so armed with our plexiglass (as sort of protractor) we trimmed these down to the regulation angle. This was our only experience of trimming. Next day we watched the trimmer apply this to live horses. Then we were told to go home and trim. To trim as soon as we got home in case we forgot what we had been taught.
To me that method of trimming I was taught came directly from the mouth of a Strasser trained instructor with material put together by the Strasser organisation. It wasn't people doing botched trims it was people trimming exactly as they had been taught.
You may think she was great and ahead of her time. I think it beggars belief that she allowed courses to be run in her name by her instructors to teach the general pulic how to butcher feet.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 2, 2011 22:55:06 GMT 1
This is a really good thread :-) I still don't see that it's the trim that's at fault though, How many horses did dr strasser ruin / or fix? How many did students of strasser ruin ? How many hooves are ruined by constant shoeing disabling the hoof from stimulating the formation of the hoof matrix ? I think there are many points that can be raised from this thread many points that are way above my knowledge level. It takes a brave person to put their neck out and say I had my horse strasser trimmed and say they were utterly satisfied. Its easy to join a linch mob especially when most people (like me) have only heard of someone who knew someone who had it done and where appalled by what they heard happened. Although there are genuine stories (mandals) it has to be said and no excuse can be made for these people nor the farriers or other trimmers that do shoddy appauling work. My general thought is though that strassers thinking into the way a hoof is put together biologically was very very insightful if it was taught or used incorrectly then the issue lies at the person holding the knife and the lack of foresight of what can go wrong if this type if trim was done with incompetent hands. All hoof care should be monitored and regulated by the proper people it's just a shame that it so often isn't always the case.
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Post by Yann on Aug 2, 2011 23:03:25 GMT 1
I don't agree with that either, there's been too much evidence to the contrary.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 2, 2011 23:13:31 GMT 1
I don't agree with that either, there's been too much evidence to the contrary. it's. Good to question it's what DG is for , opinions whatever they are matter :-) The reason I'm questioning wether the trim is as hideous as some say is if it hadn't had a success rate in the first place how could it of taken So long to dispel as cruelty? There must have been some point where someone thought yeah I can get the logic behind that ? Otherwise would she not have been jumped on straight away as a lunatic?
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Post by taklishim on Aug 2, 2011 23:24:31 GMT 1
Steve, it is late but I will repeat myself, one more time. The trimmers doing this trim were certified professionals taught by Strasser and examined by her. They were not incompetent trimmers. They were in fact very competent. It was what they had been taught to do that was wrong.
I still don't see that it's the trim that's at fault though,
try to work out what happens to a hoof if you carve out the sole, remove the bars from way below sole level, lower the heels considerably and put in opening cuts all in one trim.
Then work out what happens if you keep doing it.
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Post by taklishim on Aug 2, 2011 23:42:42 GMT 1
Otherwise would she not have been jumped on straight away as a lunatic?
she was not jumped on as a lunatic as she was a vet therefore she was believed. Her followers were like a cult. They learnt her book (lifetime of soundness) parrot fashion. They knew absolutely nothing about barefoot horses. They had no idea what a barefoot horse could do. They believed abscessing was normal in BF horses, in fact not only normal but necessary. They believed everything they were told. They did not know how to question as they did not know the questions to ask. The first part of her book/theories re lifestyle etc seemed good so they assumed the trim was good as well as it came from a vet. In those days there were farriers who were regarded as the devil and Strasser the God to all who wanted barefoot horses. It was very black and white. There was no KC, Ramey, UKNHCP. No discussions on forums. No one for people to learn from as no one knew any better. The only internet forum was naturalhorsetrim. All posts were heavily monitored and anything anti Strasser was removed. Criticism was not allowed.
Why did it take so long? If you have allowed (and paid for) your horse to be butchered you feel very very upset, very guilty and you want to go away and hide in shame. You feel even worse as you spent so much time learning about the method, in finding a trimmer, in thinking you were doing the very very best for your horse. You feel terrible that your horse only wants to lie down as his feet hurt so much or stand on 3 legs as he gets yet another abscess. It is very very difficult when you know that without doubt YOU are responsible for the cruelty you have imposed on your horse to go onto an internet forum to tell it as it is or to go to the ILPH, RSPCA etc etc.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 2, 2011 23:53:53 GMT 1
Steve, it is late but I will repeat myself, one more time. The trimmers doing this trim were certified professionals taught by Strasser and examined by her. They were not incompetent trimmers. They were in fact very competent. It was what they had been taught to do that was wrong. Yes it is late and my thumbs grow weary as I phone don't do an app for fat thumbs, or do they ? Ok so they were taught to give a horrendous evil trim right ? So how many horse did strasser ruin again? What is the official figure ? You spoke to a person who claimed they where taught to trim that way? It's quite unlikely they're going to just admit to getting it wrong once they'd effectively sentenced a horse to an uncertain future isn't it ? How could strasser get it right and have claims of success when other trimmers had already given up and advised euthanasia if this trim is so terrible. There has to be a reason her trims worked for her surely ? And there must be a reason that so many trims went horribly wrong with the certified trimmers ?
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 3, 2011 0:02:04 GMT 1
Got that quote thing a bit wrong there didn't I? Ok I take everything you say on board, but I'm asking questions because I like know not because I'm argumentative, ok so sometimes I am argumentative but I'm asking all the same. So what or where is strasser now then ? Was she struck off as a vetinary practitioner?
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Post by mandal on Aug 3, 2011 0:08:36 GMT 1
This is a really good thread :-) I still don't see that it's the trim that's at fault though, How many horses did dr strasser ruin / or fix? How many did students of strasser ruin ? How many hooves are ruined by constant shoeing disabling the hoof from stimulating the formation of the hoof matrix ? I think there are many points that can be raised from this thread many points that are way above my knowledge level. Steve, I was more open minded about Strasser trimmers before this incident and did believe they had all modified the full trim. I had no real idea what it truly consisted of until now. Although no cuts were made and there was no blood, horses that were walking happily on their hooves prior to this trim were lying down most of the time, extremely sore when walking even with high density pads taped on. They are apparently still very sore today in pads and on sand though much less so and are lying down much less. This trim will never be repeated and this Trimmer will never have access again in any capacity. Have you read the whole thread carefully? I am not given to exaggeration and actually one poster has stated her S. Trimmer provides a good 'safe' trim but doesn't trim in the manner described... why? I now believe this trim is (as taklishim says) based on some 'Veterinary' theory that appears to make sense but that has NO place in the real world. With further background information I am also coming to suspect that this Trimmer deceived and may even have 'groomed' this client which is extremely scary.
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