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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 3, 2011 19:09:42 GMT 1
I too am a firm believer in the 'do no harm' ethos, but I am absolutely certain that no Strasser trimmer would willingly cause harm. I doubt any person has ever trained as a trimmer and willingly caused harm, if you're that way way inclined you don't need to train to be a trimmer first, you could just go out and attack horses. I've removed several clients from my list because they were so unkind and/or negligent of their horses. Hitting, bleaching, starving, you name it, I've seen it. And yes I do report them where appropriate.
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Post by rj on Aug 3, 2011 19:27:22 GMT 1
I am shaking my head at your post rj. Perhaps I have just totally misread it. If so I apologise in advance. It seems to be " nice person, shame about the cruelty prosecution"
As I say perhaps I have misunderstood where you are coming from.'
Yup: Paragraph ie meant to be read as a whole not part.
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Post by rifruffian on Aug 3, 2011 22:09:02 GMT 1
Replying to the message from Derek Clark at 1103 today...........my experience with vets is just the opposite. When presented with a lame horse and suspected (by me) abcess, the vet just will not dig deep enough to diagnose anything. Twice in the last two years, after departure of the vet, I have called the farrier to do his stuff and within a minute or two the site of the abcess has been exposed by the farrier.
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Post by mandal on Aug 3, 2011 22:18:21 GMT 1
Really interesting posts and links guys, thanks. I have heard about that experiment Derek... memory is also a strange thing. This link illustrates quite well: www.naturalhoof.co.nz/strasser2.htmlYes, clearly problems with the pre-trimmed heels, but scroll down to look at the photo of the "correct trim", done by Strasser herself. Yikes is the word that springs to mind. I know the clinic was nearly 10 years ago, but think the illustration is still relevant. Is that a photo of a completed whole trim or completed trim of the heels and bars/back of the hoof? I assumed the latter because of the long toe which it seems from the trim I saw is no longer accepted. Just another thing I was told today. When questioned about taking the heels down during the trim the trimmer stated that she 'was not lowering the heels but was taking them back'. The horse had a dinner plate hoof with long toe as well as quaters but also under run heels. My understanding is an under run heel is still a long heel and taking it back is still taking it down aka shortening it. Of course I haven't studied any trims professionally but I have a feeling my understanding is the correct one in this instance. Again the use of words was used to confuse the issue in the heat of the moment.
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Post by Cameo on Aug 4, 2011 1:05:15 GMT 1
I have modified thsi as it seems t have upset several peopel - which was defitnley not my intention - sorry If i have I feel that we maybe need to be careful of saying things like "butchery" and "massacre" etc as these are bringing in too much emotion (nothing wrong with being emotional - but it clouds facts), and we also have to be careful not to slander people? I recognise that people have seen things they find unacceptable - but irrespective of who has trained them (I am sure we can all think of other trainers of techniques we might not agree with) but I do think it is important to separate the actual and specific deed from the originator of the idea. They are a long way from each other. The problem with with radical and new ideas is that there will always be detractors, and always be those who become somewhat zealous about it (two ends of the same spectrum). I did the original Strasser course many years ago and learned a huge amount about hoof structure and function. Two nights ago we went to a talk by K C LaPierre - much of what he said was the same as I had learned from Dr Strasser. I went away from Dr Strasser's course with a greater awareness as to how the hoof was built and how it worked. I felt that we were able to (if we felt confident enough - and only on our own horses) to maintain our own horses healthy hooves between visits from a certified trimmer . The "extreme trim" that some associate with the Strasser trim I was not expected to do - and I also recognised that this wasn't for me. Certainly I wasn't believing I could "massacre" or "butcher" my horse. Many people felt that their awareness was raised but that they did not feel confident in trimming their own horses - that's fine. I also paint and sculpt so I am quite happy "making" in 3D in that way. I don't doubt Mandal's experience, and I don't doubt how she feels about it - nor do I take away from Horsesfirst's feelings - or experience - but I do think it is too easy to demonise people and fall back on emotive language that might alienate others who may support your cause. Yes - we feel emotional about bad stuff happening to horses - especially if people are at the heart of it - but we do have to recognise that it is our opinions for our experience at that moment - it may well not be the full picture. It can be very dangerous to assume all fits one (ref the not-quite-understood Hitler reference). I do not condone any procedure that causes harm or distress to the horse - can I be quite clear on that. I have experience of people being new to English - and being new to it from Germany, and also experience of professional translation. It IS an issue, the transliteration of German to English, as opposed to translation. When you are learning a new language, you transliterate, you don't translate. If you are new to translation, you do the same - you take the transliteration as the translation. They are two very different things - and confusion reign. "Opening cuts" were NOT "opening up the sole until there was a shower of blood" as I read somewhere many years ago in the DG. I have been on this DG since it started and never saw threads that "got rid " of Dr Strasser :-) The "opening" was meaning to create space (eventually) between the contracted frog and the heel. The "cuts" were the little parings that you made to achieve this. NOT all done at once. As Michellep so rightly said, No trimmer is out to hurt or harm horses. KC LAPierre on Monday night said that abscesses were normal things. I think that Dr Strasser DID open up a lot of debate and possibly she made mistakes, but demonising is I believe, unhelpful. If one seriously believes one has seen "abuse" of an animal - then it should be reported it to the relevant authorities/ charities and let them and their expertise deal with it. ( :)As one who deals in education and knowledge, learning and has a passion for knowing more and appreciate so much my teachers in Kelly and Monty , I don't think that "education and knowledge mean nothing in the real world"
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2011 8:32:57 GMT 1
I went away from Dr Strasser's course with a greater awareness as to how the hoof was built and how it worked. I felt that we were able to (if we felt confident enough - and only on our own horses) to maintain our own horses healthy hooves between visits from a certified trimmer . I will have to disagree with your understanding here of what is a 'healthy' hoof then. This trim did not make the horses more comfortable, I saw some of the hooves yesterday and the neat little 'perfectly' shaped hooves that appeared on the outside after the trim were gone already. The hooves I saw had grown tremendously and were flaring already. The client was told that after the set up trim there would be just putting a roll on. There was NO dietary or after care advice... did you read that? NO after care advice. This trimmer did not even know where to source the hoof pads and had never once mentioned they would be needed. You can defend this all you wish Cameo but this was NOT a person 'listening' to the horses, this was person putting their training before the comfort and care of a horse. Certainly I wasn't believing I could "massacre" or "butcher" my horse. Many people felt that their awareness was raised but that they did not feel confident in trimming their own horses - that's fine. I also paint and sculpt so I am quite happy "making" in 3D in that way. I'm sure this person wasn't believing she had made these horses very sore, her interpretation was... "they're just getting used to their feet they'll soon get used to them." I don't doubt Mandal's experience and I don't doubt how you feel about it - nor do I take away from Horsesfirst's feelings - or experience - but I do think it is too easy to demonise people and fall back on emotive language. Yes - we feel emotional about bad stuff happening to horses - especially if people are at the heart of it - but we do have to recognise that it is our opinions for our experience at that moment - it may well not be the full picture. It can be very dangerous to assume all fits one (ref the not-quite-understood Hitler reference). The full picture I witnessed with my eyes was horses trimmed hard in to the sole, horses heel cut back to theoretical normal parameters in one trim. Frogs shaped to follow the cut concaved sole. My belief is that horses develop the concavity that individual horse needs when it is ready, ie. the hooves are healthy enough. I do not believe that cutting a humans idea of that concavity is right when the sole is thinned etc. and internal structures such as sole corium are left with little protection. This was an ideal hoof being put on a horse which left the hoof very compromised and much more compromised than it was before. I have experience of people being new to English - and being new to it from Germany, and also experience of professional translation. It IS an issue, the transliteration of German to English, as opposed to translation. When you are learning a new language, you transliterate, you don't translate. If you are new to translation, you do the same - you take the transliteration as the translation. They are two very different things - and confusion reign. This trimmer has studied for 10 years apparently. If someone hasn't got a full understanding by then, well it doesn't bear thinking about. I've heard this argument after I saw Klaus F. Hempfling live, sorry doesn't wash with me. I am going on what I saw with my own eyes and how the horses were... As Michellep so rightly said, No trimmer is out to hurt or harm horses. KC LAPierre on Monday night said that abscesses were normal things. Believing you are not harming and not harming are two completely separate things. That was the point of my Hitler reference... he believed he was doing the 'right' thing. I think that Dr Strasser DID open up a lot of debate and possibly she made mistakes, but the demonisations are unnecessary - and in truth I find they belittle us. What I saw was I believe a huge mistake for those horses, I don't care if S. has made mistakes or her horse care is good this trim was NOT OK to the horses. Please stop and think what you are defending here... these horses were made very sore with no advice no clue they would be. Do I stop 'listening' to the horses because something 'isn't hurting them' or is 'for the best? What are you asking me to do here? This is what the haters of Monty must feel... if you seriously believe you have sen "abuse2 of an animal - the report it to the relevant authorities/ charities and let them and their expertise deal with it. It is cheap and undignified to resort to spreading infamy and opinion via the public world of the internet. I am insulted you feel that I would put the feelings of a professional before horses being hurt. If you feel that is undignified that is your problem. I don't think those horses felt very 'dignified' when their feet were so sore. If IH feels I have reflected badly on IH fine. I am NOT a representative of IH in any shape or form as I have said on this Forum many times in the past but if IH basic principles (as I understand them) of listening to the horse and putting the horse before ego and belief has changed then that does beg huge questions for me. This is a discussion group, I am honestly saying what I saw, if you choose to believe I am spreading infamy that again is your problem and I think you should look hard about what and who you are defending here. In all this we are all working to make lives better for horses. Imo the lives of these horse was not made better and their response to the proceedure was not considered important or worthy of action even. Just tell me where that is putting a horses best interests first... Anyone can defend this trim all they like but the basic thinking behind it is flawed in my limited understanding. Saying KC said abscesses are 'normal' is NOT the same as saying abscesses should happen, should not be prevented at all costs and that they do any good...
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Post by taklishim on Aug 4, 2011 9:18:14 GMT 1
KC LAPierre on Monday night said that abscesses were normal things.
can a DAEP clarify this please? Did he mean that horses get abscesses ie BF horses get abscesses in the extent that shod horses do and that it is simply a fact of life? If so then that is fair enough.
Alternatively did he mean that when taking a horse barefoot it was normal and indeed expected to have abscessing. If it is the latter then that makes be wonder as to what direction he is going in.
I did the first KC course held in Sept 2002. This was at the height of the Strasser problems. We had a vet on the course who appeared to believe that abscesses were to be an expected and almost necessary part of going BF. KC was quite definite that they were not. He had certainly convinced the vet by the end of the course. KC's words were to do no harm. His trim was very nice and moderate at that time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2011 9:35:40 GMT 1
I do think it is important to separate the actual and specific deed from the originator of the idea. They are a long way from each other. But that's just it, in this case they're not. IMO if the translation between English and German is known to be an issue then Strasser shouldn't be teaching English speaking pupils, end of. This isn't like she's teaching an art class, she's teachi9ng people to take a knife to a living horse's foot. It's great that you and your fellow students came away only looking to roll your horses feet between trims, but as another attendee of her courses has explained previously, those attending the full course to become certified were also leaving with serious flaws in their knowledge. MTA, My KC La Pierre trained trimmmer is quite newly qualified and he's never, ever indicated to me that abcessing is desirable and if he did he'd get the boot.
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2011 10:08:15 GMT 1
It's great that you and your fellow students came away only looking to roll your horses feet between trims, I will be very interested if this is what will be required after this trim I have described. That was indeed what was said but as I said above, flare is already evident. My belief is that this fast growth is in response to what the horses' body considers an injury and it is doing all it can to heal it as fast as it can. 'Do no harm' to me means in part do not cause injury. This is where my belief appears to differ from this trim.
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sixfootblonde
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www.western-saddler.co.uk
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Post by sixfootblonde on Aug 4, 2011 10:47:37 GMT 1
I also did one of the early 3 day courses with Strasser. I went home and trimmed my own horses and did actually cure one of navicular within 2 months. But then the abscesses started to happen and two of my friends ponies went laminitic (changed to different Strasser trimmer and they got better immediately). I did not hang around in the Strasser camp for long before discovering Jaime Jackson and then Pete Ramey. My trimmer I now use trained under a Strasser trimmer in Germany (where incidentally she saw much better results than over here - but they were on mostly hay and not lush grass). She then changed trim to Pete Ramey and spent time with farriers etc. She has left her Strasser roots behind. I have met other Strasser trimmers that say they have modified the trim - but it has always looked pretty similar to the Strasser trim I knew. I would agree that there was no knowledge about diet. Dr Eleanor Kellon has offered much knowledge to that. I do think, from the Strasser trimmers I met, that they truly believed they were doing the right thing.
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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 4, 2011 14:02:12 GMT 1
they truly believed they were doing the right thing. And this I think is the crux of the matter. I am no strasser fan, but I am not a fan of any system which encourages blind belief rather than open and frank discussion. Or any system where criticism, learning and development is discouraged. etc etc The examples I have cited in earlier posts - I am sure the people in them truly believed they were doing a good thing. But much cruelty is inflicted by ignorance or following a system/method/practice blindly. How do we stop 'blind' cruelty? I've not worked out the answer to that one yet, answers on a postcard please............
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Post by specialized on Aug 4, 2011 14:05:10 GMT 1
In a court of law I believe ignorance is not a defence.
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Post by rj on Aug 4, 2011 14:24:53 GMT 1
Great post from Cameo! I don't see why you're insulted Mandal, I didn't read anything that was aimed at you personally, just a generalised suggestion that , quite rightly, abuse & cruelty should be reported to the relevant authorities to deal with. It sounds to me that the so-called 'trimmer' you are describing is neither one thing or another to be honest. More like someone following their own somewhat peculiar path. Have you googled their name, & if so is there anything to raise concerns? I agree with Cameo (& had tried to say the same thing) that demonising people is unhelpful, and emotive language can cloud the issue. Having said that it takes a lot to rouse Mandal, so I guess it was a heck of a shock seeing those horses feet. Ignorance is no defence in a court of law, but I don't believe Strasser trimmers are ignorant. More likely that they are very very well informed, but that doesn't make them right (or wrong, or evil, or angelic) just human & with a genuine intention to help. Before Strasser there was no barefoot movement. Life has moved on since then, and for the better, thank goodness.
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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 4, 2011 14:28:13 GMT 1
In a court of law I believe ignorance is not a defence. Ignorance of the law for sure For sure if you kill a person by mistake when you bop them on the head because the skull is softer than you allowed for you are still liable, but probably for a lesser charge.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 4, 2011 15:02:53 GMT 1
Jo (my wife and DAEP) happened to be at this lecture too as she was attending the course for her annual CPD. She says she can't actually remember KC saying anything about abscesses in his talk at all but she also says that she's 100% sure KC would not deliberately say anything to imply that abscesses should be expected as a normal consequence of going barefoot. Sometimes they do happen and yes, that is nature in action (in response to an infection or an overdose of point pressure), but they are certainly not a 'necessary' part of the process of going barefoot.
Derek
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