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Post by taklishim on Aug 4, 2011 15:56:28 GMT 1
thank you, Derek, for clarifying that. I would have been really suprised (and dissapointed) if you had said anything else.
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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 4, 2011 16:15:11 GMT 1
on the abscess front. I've been a barefooter for 15+ years.
I have taken on horses which have abscessed prior to my meeting them. I've had one abscess due to chronic seedy toe and very wet ground. I've had another abscess when extremely thin soled and then trotted over stoney ground by carer. And another which was so chronically ill with cancer that I doubt it could fight any kind of infection. One abscessed when a vet applied hoof testers to a thin laminitic foot.
All of the above had been out of shoes for months if not years before I met them. Apart from the above not one has abscessed on deshoeing. (as far as my memory serves me and I admit it sometimes doesn't)
That isn't to say the next one won't - but my point is - it doesn't need to be part of the process and it isn't 'necessary'.
Barefooters will sometimes get abscesses, same as shod horses, hopefully less often if their feet have transitioned well. But it shouldn't be because of how they have been trimmed.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 4, 2011 16:37:00 GMT 1
Jo (my wife and DAEP) happened to be at this lecture too as she was attending the course for her annual CPD. She says she can't actually remember KC saying anything about abscesses in his talk at all but she also says that she's 100% sure KC would not deliberately say anything to imply that abscesses should be expected as a normal consequence of going barefoot. Sometimes they do happen and yes, that is nature in action (in response to an infection or an overdose of point pressure), but they are certainly not a 'necessary' part of the process of going barefoot. Derek I was also at the lecture and remember him going into abscesses and the reason they form quite clearly although I did forget to press record if your expecting a word for word quote. He did mention them being naturally occurring. Nobody mentioned him saying it was expected when you go bare foot.
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 4, 2011 16:50:49 GMT 1
Hi stevo...
Not doubting you for a moment ;D I didn't express myself very clearly there, I only meant that she said she couldn't recall him saying anything about abscesses, not that he absolutely didn't say anything. However, I think you and she are relaying the same message.
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 4, 2011 17:10:40 GMT 1
K.c. Even questioned the audience about which way you would expect an abcess to eventually burst out. think read text can get muddled and inflame things really, although there's not much option with a forum lol. Id actually love to go on one of the kc courses the guy talks complete sense, it got heavy in places for me but if you don't go and learn you you don't have much chance of gaining real knowledge do you? I don't think anyone on hear wants to do harm nor any trimmer who has spent any length of time trimming. There are people all over the world that suffer with people who have done harm to their horses feet it's unacceptable whatever the type of trim or shoe. I guess everyone can bump gums about this till their heads fall off, you either choose to have it or not really. You either trust in the theory or you don't it's gotten a little too rasps at noon now :-)
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sixfootblonde
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www.western-saddler.co.uk
Posts: 1,138
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Post by sixfootblonde on Aug 4, 2011 17:26:01 GMT 1
I did not mean to imply ignorance is a defence. Just that these people were not intentionally cruel. The ones I met were horse lovers that got blinded by incorrect science. Strasser did a very emotive presentation in Germany I understand, that got people hooked. Of course horses should not have been hurt, and many, many have suffered unnecessarily and cruelly.
Interestingly though, more horses in the UK suffered with our type of horse keeping, than in Germany. My friend trimmed at a trekking centre in Germany, where there were over 100 horses used in this centre. They could all canter on hard gravel tracks, no problem.
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Post by taklishim on Aug 4, 2011 17:29:51 GMT 1
I did not mean to imply ignorance is a defence. Just that these people were not intentionally cruel. The ones I met were horse lovers that got blinded by incorrect science. Strasser did a very emotive presentation in Germany I understand, that got people hooked. Of course horses should not have been hurt, and many, many have suffered unnecessarily and cruelly.
very well put. Pat
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Post by specialized on Aug 4, 2011 18:25:14 GMT 1
'These people' still have to take responsibility for their actions, 'I chopped the horse's foot off because she said it was best' simply does not wash when animals are being crippled. That is why, as I have said before, the general business of hoof trimming by podiatrist, farrier or whoever needs regulation and recognised training standards.
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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 4, 2011 18:56:03 GMT 1
The NOS have been drafted. Having had some involvement with the process the last I heard was that there is a requirement for an examination body to present itself, a bit like for GSCEs. There are even some grants in place for training! Both the UKNHCP and AANHCP train more or less to the NOS, although I can vouch for the fact that the nutritional side of things still currently sucks when you compare it to what you really need to know. That of course is my personal opinion I can't speak for the DAEPs and the like because it is a while since I checked their requirements.
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Post by cookie on Aug 4, 2011 19:31:49 GMT 1
The NOS have been drafted. Having had some involvement with the process the last I heard was that there is a requirement for an examination body to present itself, a bit like for GSCEs. There are even some grants in place for training! That sounds very promising. Surely the agric colleges would be well placed to be the examining bodies for this. They may need to recruit the actual examiners but with a nos available it should be completely doable. Those already trained by the bodies you mentioned could be 'grandfathered in' to an accredited system assuming the evidence is there that they train in that way. I'm really pleased that this is work in progress. I appreciate how long it all takes, but ultimately will protect horses, owners and credible trimmers.
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Post by june on Aug 4, 2011 19:41:40 GMT 1
We host some of the KC courses in the UK and we certainly wouldn't be doing that if KC was of the opinon abscesses were desirable. We do have horses that get abscesses, but we have over 45 horses here so the occasional abscess is not particularly surprising. When I had shod horses they got abscesses occasionally too.
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Post by horsesfirst on Aug 4, 2011 20:29:51 GMT 1
The NOS have been drafted. Having had some involvement with the process the last I heard was that there is a requirement for an examination body to present itself, a bit like for GSCEs. There are even some grants in place for training! That sounds very promising. Surely the agric colleges would be well placed to be the examining bodies for this. They may need to recruit the actual examiners but with a nos available it should be completely doable. Those already trained by the bodies you mentioned could be 'grandfathered in' to an accredited system assuming the evidence is there that they train in that way. I'm really pleased that this is work in progress. I appreciate how long it all takes, but ultimately will protect horses, owners and credible trimmers. Apologies - I used the wrong term - I should have said 'awarding body' a bit like Edexcel. Agric colleges could be a place of study and somewhere to sit exams but an 'Edexcel' type body is needed first. Unfortunately they will only do it if they can make a profit and so far this is where it has stalled. I do know of one institution that may look into doing it but when I think of this org' the unfortunate phrase using the words 'pxss up' and 'brewery' spring to mind.
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sixfootblonde
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www.western-saddler.co.uk
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Post by sixfootblonde on Aug 4, 2011 20:37:21 GMT 1
Absolutely agree that standards need to be brought in, and pleased to hear that that is in progress. Although the responsibility isn't just with the trimmers, but also the owners of the horses. Of course, you pay a 'professional' to do a job and trust they will. Strasser has been described as a cult - and owners as well as the trimmers, all got sucked in, mostly only briefly. Although it is interesting to me, that two qualified farriers could not help my horse with navicular. And after a 3 day Strasser course, and two months later, and she is pronounced sound and cured by the one of the best vets in the country! You cannot just rely on standards to keep farriers and trimmers in line though. You also need common sense as an owner. Of course this applies to saddle fitting, and training, as much as anything else. ETA: Just re-read and wanted to say that I in no way think that laming horses is right, or necessary, on the path to having sound barefoot horses. And do not use or approve of Strasser trimming at all.
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2011 20:41:39 GMT 1
Great post from Cameo! I don't see why you're insulted Mandal, I didn't read anything that was aimed at you personally, just a generalized suggestion that , quite rightly, abuse & cruelty should be reported to the relevant authorities to deal with. I read more in the post than that but perhaps it is my understanding that is incorrect. I was cross because I understood Cameo to be saying that this person was not following what she was taught, that she was taking it to an extreme. That she was misinterpreting what she had been taught because of language misunderstanding and possible taking the method too far. I know I haven't studied the method or have degrees in Veterinary sciences but I fail to see how a (declared by themselves) Certified practitioner who has very recently attended for appraisal for re certification (according to her) and has been studying for 10 years has got away with doing stuff outside what is taught. If I am not allowed to question and make my own judgment as to that training by what I have seen with my own eyes then lets all just say Strasser trim is without fault in the modern world. I'm afraid I will not agree to that now I have some limited personal experience. The total lack of any suggestion that there may be even soreness after this trim and no support for horses advised to be pre arranged, shows extreme lack of care imo. The horses have been put at risk of abscessing and it was only luck that the owner had pads. I will not agree that this is acceptable because the teacher has been at the forefront in the past. I have acknowledged that the husbandry aspects are good and probably shouldn't have quoted hearsay in my opening paragraph but I object to the inference that I shouldn't criticize because some is good and the 'teacher' is an expert and that the trimmer was not following the model. Obviously it seems I am once again in my own world with my understanding of a post. What was done has no excuse in my book and I so wish I had grabbed those knives out of her hand. These horses were put into pain and at risk of further pain and suffering due to this trim and lack of advice full stop. I am also very angry that I am apparently not able to see similarities with the trim I watched and the ones I've seen described and photographed and that this is possibly purely a one off rogue trimmer. I know I'm no expert but I don't believe this Trimmer did anything she wasn't taught. I am also aware she truly believes she is doing the best... that best is not good enough for me or those horses and there is no way I will deny that or try and rationalize that wherever the learning and 'expertize' comes from. Perhaps one day I will have to eat my words if abscesses and thin soles and bars are shown to be good/necessary for horses and they can run off normally on any surface post trim but even I with my limited knowledge know how excruciatingly painful abscesses are and if they ever are proved to be necessary then pain relieving after care is still a priority. If I have gone over the top and been unreasonable and put an unfair possibly slanderous slant on all this then what can I say. I have told what I saw and what I have experienced and been told. Does H. Strasser teach after care? What are the recommendations for owners following this trim?
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Post by Cameo on Aug 5, 2011 10:03:54 GMT 1
Oh dear! No insult or offence was intended Mandal - I am sorry if you felt so. Maybe you misunderstood my post or maybe I didn't express myself well enough. I was not directing my thoughts at you personally Mandal - and I do not have a problem with agreeing or not agreeing with anyone. Nor do I have the authority to allow or not allow you to form your own opinions!! You obviously saw things you were very unhappy about and you care passionately about horses and their welfare as we all do. I wrote my post as I felt that the thread was degenerating into an exercise in vivification which doesn't sit well on the IHDG. I was not defending the trimmer you saw, nor her training, experience, knowledge etc etc as I couldn't possibly do that as I don't know her at all but I was trying to explain a different experience and point of view. There are always different aspects to an issue. (Dr Strasser's book "A Lifetime of Soundness" and Jaime Jackson's and what I heard in the KC LaPierre talk did not have radically different content about hooves' structure and function:)) I also think that we have slander and libel laws for a good reason. People's passion and strong emotions are wonderful and necessary things, but discussion and debate are more effective if we put these to one side. I am not going to get into an argument as that wouldn't be helpful and wont achieve much. Interesting comments about the difference in climate between the UK and the continent - having lived in one and spent a lot of time in the other at different times of year, this is an important aspect. Yes - I remember being taught about after-care, and nutrition and management of the horses on the Strasser course - these were in fact essential parts of the work. Derek - you explained better what I was trying to say about K C LaPierre's reference to abscesses. I think my comment there was misunderstood - I didn't say that he said it was an expected and necessary aspect of barefoot or transition! Acne in humans is normal - doesn't mean it is desirable or painless, but it can be related to diet and lifestyle too etc etc etc... Thank you for your comments rj
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