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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 10:20:43 GMT 1
Obviously it seems I am once again in my own world with my understanding of a post. No you're not alone, I interpreted the post the same way you did
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 5, 2011 10:37:18 GMT 1
Anyone for tea and a scone?
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Aug 5, 2011 11:21:09 GMT 1
KC LAPierre on Monday night said that abscesses were normal things. can a DAEP clarify this please? Did he mean that horses get abscesses ie BF horses get abscesses in the extent that shod horses do and that it is simply a fact of life? If so then that is fair enough. Alternatively did he mean that when taking a horse barefoot it was normal and indeed expected to have abscessing. If it is the latter then that makes be wonder as to what direction he is going in. I did the first KC course held in Sept 2002. This was at the height of the Strasser problems. We had a vet on the course who appeared to believe that abscesses were to be an expected and almost necessary part of going BF. KC was quite definite that they were not. He had certainly convinced the vet by the end of the course. KC's words were to do no harm. His trim was very nice and moderate at that time. I'm not a DAEP but have trained with KC and did his original theory certificate. Abcessing was not considered a normal part of taking a horse barefoot, but they were considered to be something that could happen and if they did, it was just one of those things. I've been trimming for 5 years or so now. Admittedly only a handful of horses, but only 1 of them has abcessed, and he only abcessed once. If a horse I trim was repeatedly abcessing, I'd be looking for a reason as to why. And no, I don't believe that horses store abcesses up and release them when the hoof is becoming more healthy, which is pretty much what the Strasser theory seemed to be.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 5, 2011 11:45:09 GMT 1
[ If a horse I trim was repeatedly abcessing, I'd be looking for a reason as to why. And no, I don't believe that horses store abcesses up and release them when the hoof is becoming more healthy, which is pretty much what the Strasser theory seemed to be.[/quote] Link about strassers theories on abcesses. www.ukstrasserhoofcare.co.uk/content/article5.asp
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 11:58:59 GMT 1
Thanks for posting that Ste. This bit is of particualr interest to me:
When contracted hooves open, sole and heel abscesses must be expected. They are predominantly found in the area of the heels and bars, and sometimes also by the frog, especially near the tip. They also form in places where shoes' clips are, and near the rearmost nails. Often excessively long bars which have grown over the sole cause pressure points which later become noticeable as abscesses.
The horse should be let out onto a soft and level pasture or paddock. Movement on soft ground is helpful as it increases blood flow into the hoof, allowing for quicker healing. After three days, the corium will be covered with a whitish - yellow skin, the newly - formed sole horn. After one week the sheet of horn will already be thick enough for the horse to walk smoothly on even ground.
I seriously disagree that abcesses "must be expected"
Presumably the second bit I've put in bold means they expect the trimmer to expose the solar corium, again something I would not agree with.
The final bold sentence says it all - they EXPECT a horse to be unsound for at least a week on even ground.
That's direct from Strasser, so clearly the trimmers who do this ARE NOT failing to apply the "correct" strasser trim.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 12:33:10 GMT 1
From another article on that site:
Be it removal of shoes, conformational corrections, or the reduction of excessively long heels to allow contracted hooves to open‑‑all of these result in a change in the stresses (pressures and tensions) within the hoof, associated ligaments and tendons, and/or joints. It stands to reason that the effected tissues will require some time to become accustomed to these.
Usually, every tissue of the body, every cell, is replaced after a certain amount of time, depending in part on the rate of metabolism. However, when there is a change in the tissue, or a repair is necessary, sometimes the usual rate of metabolism is not sufficient. Increased circulation and increased blood supply become necessary‑‑in other words, inflammation. Within the hoof, increased blood supply is painful because there is no room for the excess blood.
THIS IS WHY, IN MANY CASES, WITH CHANGES IN THE SHAPE OF THE HOOF, COMES INFLAMMATION OF THE CORIUM.
This is generally impossible to avoid, since the reshaping of the hoof toward its normal, physiologically sound form cannot take place without inflammation‑‑which disappears as tissues and stresses once again harmonize.
To me this means they know significantly re-shaping a foot will cause stress on tendons, ligaments and joints and instead of trimming gradually to accomodate the change, the horse and owner are expected to just accept it.
This really looks to me like pretty conclusive evidence that Strasser expects horses to be in pain after being trimmed and thinks it's totally acceptable.
I need to stop reading it now!
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 5, 2011 12:56:41 GMT 1
To me this means they know significantly re-shaping a foot will cause stress on tendons, ligaments and joints and instead of trimming gradually to accomodate the change, the horse and owner are expected to just accept it. This really looks to me like pretty conclusive evidence that Strasser expects horses to be in pain after being trimmed and thinks it's totally acceptable. I need to stop reading it now![/quote] Need to learn this quote thing properly :-) I'd be more inclined to agree on the suddenness of the change but I don't know the reasoning behind the suddenness if that makes sense so I can't comment on why it's done in this way. ?also expected doesn't mean accepted , yes it's clear she has the opinion that discomfort will be evident I suppose it depends on the severity of the change. No hoof would be the same at the start so although the end result is the same hoof model the amount trimmed and discomfort or if you prefare pain level would be different in each horse also? But if you did it in stages you would eventually end up with the same model of trim wouldn't you? If the shape is poor through whatever reason and needs to be corrected it would be different from a horse with a close to natural shape and would be less prone to pain during change wouldn't it? At no point does the site say well change your horses foot and it will hurt so you'd better get used to it as we know best. I'm also not saying that pain is desirable or in any way what I would want for my horse. I would need to find out why it isn't done gradually That all seemed very long winded now about that tea?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 13:01:35 GMT 1
My basic learnings of KC trimming is that IF significant change is required, it should be done very gradually (i.e. over several trims) to prevent excessive stresses and pain. Those quotes I posted suggest to me that Strasser's view is that you should make all the changes straight away and accept it will hurt.
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 5, 2011 13:36:14 GMT 1
My basic learnings of KC trimming is that IF significant change is required, it should be done very gradually (i.e. over several trims) to prevent excessive stresses and pain. Those quotes I posted suggest to me that Strasser's view is that you should make all the changes straight away and accept it will hurt. I agree :-) :-D if it's drastic it should be done gradually :-) were getting somewhere :-) I will try to find out if indeed all trims are done drastically although there is evidence on that site to say its not always done drastically ie the link to the abscesses page. She recommends not to take a large part of the sole and let it come out naturally and use traditional resting methods as it would be too painful. This says to me that pain isn't acceptable if you can avoid it. I don't see how someone with strassers experience and goal would overlook gradual trimming if it was to eliminate pain/discomfort altogether ? It seems a little strange someone would spend their life working on hooves trying to make them better , by using the roughest quickest harshest manner if there was a less painful way of doing it gradually. It doesn't make sense to me to make better by being impatient and causing pain when your goal is to make better in the first place? If however it turned out that there is no reason progressive gradual trimming shouldn't be used I'd be questioning that too
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Post by stevosectiond on Aug 5, 2011 13:37:10 GMT 1
P's I like kc and I will do a course to learn more :-p
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Post by mandal on Aug 5, 2011 13:41:44 GMT 1
Thanks for posting that Ste. This bit is of particualr interest to me: When contracted hooves open, sole and heel abscesses must be expected. They are predominantly found in the area of the heels and bars, and sometimes also by the frog, especially near the tip. They also form in places where shoes' clips are, and near the rearmost nails. Often excessively long bars which have grown over the sole cause pressure points which later become noticeable as abscesses.
Just going out but will describe what I saw with my own eyes as un-emotively as I can later. The Trimmer at NO time stated that the horses had to go onto smooth grass and at no time recommended pads or boots to walk across the hard ground outside the concrete floored barn to get to a piece of carpet where they lay down almost immediately. So there is a slight failing in that aspect to 'guidelines'.
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Aug 5, 2011 15:30:12 GMT 1
Complete bunkum, if this was the case every horse with sidebone (of which there are many) would be repeatedly abcessing, which is not the case. Complete and utter load of twaddle.
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Post by taklishim on Aug 5, 2011 15:40:32 GMT 1
I studied a lot of horses trimmed the Strasser way. It was a trim. One US farrier likened it to a franchise such as Burger King. It was. The trimmers learnt her trim and applied it. They did exactly as they were taught. They all recited the same information. They were all singing from S's hymn sheet. For marks out of 10 in doing what she taught them it would have been 10 out of 10. They provided a lot of info on how the horse should be kept. (not the current info that is supplied on diet) Movement was paramount. A good half of her book Lifetime of soundess is about horse keeping not the trim.
They were not the skilled trimmers we would hopefully expect today who would work out the problem and then use their knowledge, experience and initiative to work out the best solution for that horse's circumstances. They applied a method. That was it.
abcesses "must be expected"
they were to be welcomed. People were warned about abscesses. It was not hidden or unexpected. It was to be expected and welcomed as a sign that the foot was healing.
One person took her strasser trimmed horse to the first course KC did here. It had had the Strasser method applied several times and was very bad. It was a big horse and it seriously took all his expertise just to get it's feet up to trim it. He commented that if we had a thin piece of wire we could push it from the toe right through to the heel through the abscess tracks.
To me this means they know significantly re-shaping a foot will cause stress on tendons, ligaments and joints and instead of trimming gradually to accomodate the change, the horse and owner are expected to just accept it.
by this I think we are talking about lowering the heels. They were lowered in one go and yes the horse had to accept it. The height was 3-4cm from the ground to the hairline (I am quoting this from LOS) A plexiglass would have been used to check the angle of the hairline.
This really looks to me like pretty conclusive evidence that Strasser expects horses to be in pain after being trimmed and thinks it's totally acceptable.
it is difficult to contradict that. I don't think the trimmers necessarily set out to cause pain. It was just accepted as a consequence of what they did. They did as they were taught and they were 100% comitted to the cause. There is really no other way of putting it. It was pointed out to them again and again that non Strasser trimmed horses did not have to go through this but the reply was that those horses were inferior to Strasser trimmed horses. I was told that on many occasions. It was irrelevant that non strasser trimmed horses were sound and most of the Strasser horses had difficulty in doing much. They would get there in the end. The end could be a couple of years hence. Then they would be superior barefoot horses.
I remember someone querying if it was fair to put the horses through this pain and discomfort to achieve some sort of "equine valhalla". Some people thought it was. It is difficult for people now to accept that some owners really did think they had to do this method and were so dedicated to the cause.
I am not sure if the trimmer's were insured or not but I believe that client's had to sign a waiver form before trimming. I cannot remember what was on the UK one but I remember seeing a US one which included the side effect of "mechanical laminitis".
Just going out but will describe what I saw with my own eyes as un-emotively as I can later.
Mandal, I don't in anyway dispute what you saw. It is what I would have expected to see in a horse trimmed in that way. I would be interested to know what the trimmers explanations were as to why she was doing things. What was her reaction when the horses were sore wallking away. Had she expected it? You said that these horse (s) had dinner plates at the start and were several sizes smaller by the end. To achieve that I can only think that she would have drastically trimmed the flaring. I cannot remember much emphasis being placed when we were taught (and admitedly it was only the 3 day course I did) on trimming flare. I don't remember bringing the foot forward nor using a hoof stand to take flare. This makes me wonder if these horses had a two pronged attack. ie there was considerable trimming of flare and also lowering of the heel, taking sole and bar and frog trimming.
Not much left to trim really. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by taklishim on Aug 5, 2011 15:45:54 GMT 1
waiver form before trimming.
sorry, I think I meant to say disclaimer form.
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Post by rj on Aug 5, 2011 16:42:45 GMT 1
Strawberry jam & cream with mine, please Steve! None of us were there and saw what was so shocking to Mandal so we are reacting to her description. I am in no doubt that what she saw is not competent or ethical trimming, and that the person needs to be questioned and if necessary, reported to the appropriate authorities.
My stance was based on the thread that Cameo remembers, which just turned into a real witch hunt and whilst I do NOT support Strasser, I feel very uncomfortable about any one making violent or vicious comments. That's not aimed at anyone on this thread - it hasn't got as bad, but I felt it was heading there.
This remains a discussion group, and we can usually carry on discussing things without falling out!
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