Give up on barefoot?

[Yann]

If it's not up to tarmac, presumably because of wear issues, I would be surprised if it's going to be durable enough to ride on very much, if at all. It would appear to be a niche product rather than a groundbreaking development, but useful nonetheless. We shall see.

[geeup]

I've not read this thread in its entirity but I'm really confused, do you think some foot problems are caused by horses eating grass?

[pip]

"I've not read this thread in its entirity but I'm really confused, do you think some foot problems are caused by horses eating grass?"

Apparently so, some horses get a Low Grade Laminitis (LGL) that manifests as "footiness" they aren't suffering from full blown laminitis, although it can go on and develop into that, but just aren't sound if grazing grass.

Lots of horses are diagnosed with back problems, when in fact it is their feet - which is actually one of the things that happened to me, when my horse was still in shoes. I was showing him, and one judge said she thought he had a back problem as he wasn't moving right. I had just had his back done, and there was nothing much wrong anyway, so I knew it wasn't his back, so there had to be another explanation. Also he was OK on an artificial surface, won dressage and showing classes, so he was only in trouble on a firmer surface. This is also what Robert Eustace says, that often horses are referred to the vet with back and shoulder problems, particularly show horses, when in fact they are suffering from laminitis.

Some people think it is a sort of "horse diabetes" that the horse cannot handle the sugars present in fresh grass. Their soundness improves when they are fed only hay/haylege/soaked hay, etc and don't get access to fresh grass at all. The hay also should be meadow grass, not the high sugar ryegrass grown for silage for cattle.

I don't think my horse has this, although I will take on board everything everyone says and probably drop the D&H Balancer. I fed this a few years ago and was very pleased with it, as it has some added things to help with stiffness, and I certainly thought that my horse benefitted from that. Still, I did know that it was slightly higher in the starch/cereal, which is why I changed to Top Spec originally.

Back to the drawing board!

[Yann]

I've not read this thread in its entirity but I'm really confused, do you think some foot problems are caused by horses eating grass?

Definitely, horses can end up in a state of low grade or slow motion laminitis. Long toes, changes in hoof growth angle below the coronet band, flare, white line separation and flat soles are all signs of trouble. Not all horses are affected, or affected in the same ways, and mineral balance in the grass can play its part too.

[Susan]

ref the use of wrap on tarmac. I dont think we have the full answer there as KC added to that point on a thread on his forum, it depends on product bought, how applied and type of horse. It isnt about only one product.

I have offered to trial it here with the larger horse as not only are we looking at hardening the hoof and strengthening the sole we need concavity and this product I am told will also be aiding that for horses.
I await KC...
I think till we try it and speak from experience we are assuming and we may well all be wrong.. I wont write off it, if I did that then I feel I am being short sighted as progress does not stand still.
Mark Rashid speaks of getting what you settle for, I am not prepared to settle for what I have at this time.

I so wish my easyboots with Upbuckles were still so easy to apply and have a good fit and not slip. Teach my horse to slip??
If Flynn slips he feels unsafe and is very selective where he walks there on.. and slipping is telling him it is unsafe surface.. so he is correct to act in that way.. that is self preservation

Has anyone tried the studs in easyboots?

[june]

It would be a shame if it was marketed only to farriers as it would take business away from trimmers. Its unlikely someone would have a trimmer trim their horse and then have a farrier apply the wrap. Much better if it were available to all trimmers and farriers for the benefit of the horse.

[Azrael]

In the perfect hoof club newsletter it does say the current wrap isn't suitable for use on tarmac because it wears through too quickly but there's another version in development that would hopefully be ok on tarmac. Last night I couldn't see anything on PHC about a tarmac friendly version being ready anytime soon. If they do develop a version that's ok on tarmac then it might be something I'd be interested in trying but until then it's pretty useless to me as long as I resist the temptation to aquire any new problem feet!

Re the grass thing - its not just grass that can do bad things to the feet, lots of dietary things can, sugary things, wrong mineral balance 'food intolerance' type things. I have one freak that can eat as much grass as she wants and still bounce over stones without noticing them but can't even have a tiny bit of alfalfa.

[justinej]

I remember a few years ago someone telling me they didn't allow their horses grass at all and I thought they were a bit loopy. Now I think they were being rather foresighted! We definitely have a problem with grass in the UK. I have known horses to react in certain places as if the grass is completely toxic. The picture of the horse on the safegrass website, with the body of a horse and the head of a cow says it all really. Most UK grassland was developed to fatten cows and sheep and now most of it seems to be fattening horses. It's not the type of environment horses were developed to survive on. Couple that with the fact that most of us (me included) don't have the time to exercise enough and we have a real problem, which seems to be getting worse by the day.

The thing that worries me the most about this product of KCs is that trimmers are just starting to get respect and recognition in the UK and something that is potentially going to raise issues within the farriery act may put the whole thing in jeopardy. I hope I am totally wrong but trimmers are threatening the farriery industry here in the UK and there are going to be people out there that will see this as a great opportunity to create trouble. That is why I think for the moment, if it is to be released in the UK, aim it at farriers (and vets) because then it keeps everyone safe. I'm sure with the revisions to the veterinary act we may see a change in what trimmers and dentists for example are permitted to do within the law, but that is a way off yet. I just think the timing is wrong for rocking the boat.

Lets face it, if trimmers think it is a worthwhile product, they are going to be happier for it to be used within the law surely than for a) it not to be used at all or b) for it to be used illegally and there be a risk that they get prosecuted or that they give the hoofcare profession a bad name. We have just managed to get rid of the stigma barefoot had due to Strasser. Let's not throw all that good work away.

The way I would play it if I was KC would be to consult the FRC and find out exactly what they think then work with them if necessary to make it available within the law over here.

[sundance]

I have lots of sympathy with the OP, I certainly wouldn't judge her if she decided to go back to shoes, either all round or just fronts or just for part of the year. Barefoot is not an easy choice and seems to be full of compromises. In my heart I know it is better for my horses so long as I don't overdo things with riding them on difficult surfaces.I have had to step right back in what I can do with them as one has big issues with slipping on muddy tracks, even with Renegades and Grips, gravel can also be difficult. I still don't know if I will go back to shoes at some point, what helps is that I have achieved my competitive goals and am at a stage where I take each ride at a time, if conditions are not right then I may get off and lead or slow down. Sometimes it seems so easy to put shoes on and do whatever I want to, but deep down I know that my horses are better barefoot and one of them is such a rock cruncher that he constantly gives me hope for the others.

[taklishim]

we have a real problem, which seems to be getting worse by the day

Totally agree with you. I cannot see if we had an existing problem which has been brought to the fore by barefoot ridden horses. (as oposed to pasture pets who coped with LGL) or if something is getting worse whatever that may be. I don''t think exercise resolves it as we ride a lot and it still seems to be there and it must be grass related.


Susan, I was not being funny about teaching your horse to slip, it really does help with booted riding.
Horses naturally slip. The wild ponies around us slip around the grass verges as they charge around and they are so good at it that it means nothing to them. Slipping on mud is not like slipping on tarmac which is an unatural surface for horses. On their own horses slip and slide around on mud flat out in their fields and learn their strategies for keeping there balance and dealing with it.

Our barefoot arab slips. He has been without shoes for around 15 plus years and with practise has become an expert at it and very safe. The first ride he went barefoot he went skiing down a steep wet grassy slope as he did not realise he had to make adjustments. He soon worked things out and learnt. It is the same with booted horses, they have to learn. If they don't get the chance to practice and improve then it just confirms for them that mud is slippery and unsafe.
Flynn won't feel so unsafe (either to himself or you) if he learns to deal with slippery surfaces. Try it leading to start with on easy slopes and let him make mistakes and work it out. It really does make boots not seem quite so bad.

[Casper]

Our lovely EP Adi is on holiday at the moment - in far sunnier climes than us, the lucky lady. But looking forward to our next appointment, as Bobby seems to be wearing his toes quite low. He's kind of got his own "mustang roll" which he's never had before. We've been doing a bit more roadwork and I'm worried we've overdone it. He seems fine, but it's worried me a bit TBH. Going to put his boots on for roadwork for the timebeing until can get Adi's view on things.

[june]

Its also been pretty wet Caspar which I think is making the horn softer and more prone to wear. We've got a few that have worn their toes more than usual too, both on the fronts and the hinds.

[Yann]

I don''t think exercise resolves it as we ride a lot and it still seems to be there and it must be grass related.

That tallies with my experience this summer just gone, Rio was one of the fittest and hardest working horses on the yard and it still didn't stop her getting quite sore a couple of times. It also corresponded with particularly sustained spells of wet weather, not sure what mechanism that might indicate.

Susan, I was not being funny about teaching your horse to slip, it really does help with booted riding

I think it helps booted or not, we have no choice but to ride on some awful surfaces out hacking, including some quite steep slopes, or we wouldn't hack at all. I was sceptical about the idea of horses improving in terms of traction and balance after having their shoes off but both of them have, very noticeably.

He's kind of got his own "mustang roll" which he's never had before. We've been doing a bit more roadwork and I'm worried we've overdone it.

If he's comfortable I wouldn't worry, I would take it as a sign that he wants the toe back like that, after all it's self trimming through movement, which is what he'd do if he was wild

[Casper]

Thanks June and Yann. He is certainly moving just fine - and his feet are looking fantastic. I just worry too much...!

[justinej]

I don't think exercise resolves it but I think the impacts are usually less bad in horses that get more exercise if you see what I mean, or at least, I certainly get that impression. Of course, there is so much inconsistency in the whole thing. Just like people are suffering more and more allergies and diabetes and Crohn's and ME and all these things, it is a systemic thing and there must be somewhat of a genetic predisposition and an environmental one and let's face it, it's all so damn complicated, where do we really start with the whole thing?

Diet is most definitely the key though isn't it?