|
Post by pbsarah on Dec 31, 2007 12:12:52 GMT 1
Hi Pip www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoHlJspyBsShows my horse Fari doing just everything I want him to do but he is not the greatest barefoot horse in the world. He is however much better than when he was in shoes. In shoes he pulled a suspensory ligament, not because of the shoes but because his toe had run forward so much. In shoes he was uncomfortable, tripping, stumbling, reluctant to go down hills. Out of shoes he trips seldom, stumbles never and romps down hill as the video shows. In shoes he was reluctant to jump, out of shoes .... well the video shows him, a little Arab, trying his hooves off. I have the same problems as you, a horse who is never quite rock crunching, never quite happy on challenging surfaces and yet he tries his heart out for me. I did go back to shoes but he went back to tripping and I constantly worried about another ligament injury. I have tried every trim in the book on him, travelled the world looking for answers to make him rock crunching. Now I believe he has a compromised immune system and that shows itself in his feet. The slightest change to his diet can affect him for good or bad and show in the performance of his hooves. After nearly six long years I have finally accepted his limitations and chosen to give him the best diet and environment I can and ride him in boots when he needs it. I have chosen that route because it suits me and my horse but it might be different if I was in a livery yard, had a different horse or did not have a pair of boots I could trust over jumps. The happiness of my horse is what is important to me, the comfort of my horse is paramount but within the boundaries of him being able to do what I want him to do with me on board and that means competition. At the end of the day barefoot is only a choice but for some owner combinations it is also about compromise. Maybe if I was forced to keep Fari in a different way then perhaps shoes would be my best choice or maybe I would compromise. In many ways though my determination to keep him bare has taught me to listen to my horse so I have to say owning him is a challenging privilege. If you put shoes on you can always take them off again, like I did, if your horse tells you he is happier with them off. HTH Sarah
|
|
|
Post by Yann on Dec 31, 2007 12:21:51 GMT 1
I don't disagree with you and the horse's history plays its part but I think the reason some horses struggle to get really good feet under them that can do anything a shoe can is mainly dietary rather than genetic. This is my third winter at it and I've seen an improvement in capability and hoof condition every time the grass stops growing and a deterioration every time it starts growing again. That's not true for every horse, but it certainly is for many, and their hooves, whether shod or not, tell the tale if you know what to look for.
There are also people who've taken the drastic step of taking their horse off grass completely and seen immense improvements. For most owners on livery yards that's just not an option when you consider the rest of the picture, it's no good having great hooves on a miserable stressed horse.
|
|
|
Post by Susan on Dec 31, 2007 12:49:21 GMT 1
I think the BF route is for those who wish to go that route because they simply do not want to shoe and for some their horse may not have any other choice if the history has shown it is last chance.
But as said it isn't an easy one for most or a cheaper one. But who said life is easy and it seems the more we know the more questions we ask.
For us all, I bet life seemed easier when we knew little, and simply shod our horse, put on any saddle and bridle and blamed the horse when it didnt perform as we saw fit.
I have often said life was easy to have Ignorance is Bliss. But for me I cant undo what I have learned and to know so much more about the foot capsule and all the structures that make a foot, not simply what looks good to the eye on the outside means I cant go backwards to how I was.
To me it is like knowing better way to load a horse and not brooms up the bum, because I have learned more and better in my opinion. I cant go back.
Horses all come from different places, and history and the length of time a shoe is on. Then of course worst situation if shod badly the more damage done to be put right. If Flynn was shod for 4 years and not as good as I believed I cant put it right straight away simply taking shoes off, I have to mend it first then start about getting it better.
So there cant be a black and white answer to how long it will take to get it right. How much you want out of your horse, and what is it you want? what conditions do you keep your horse, diet, environment and then of course the foot care given and conditioning put it. All of this means each is a different equation. The breed type and weight condition. There is not one easy answer.
I set about this route from my own perspective because of how bad Flynns front feet became, I had no choice. Those who have seen the pictures can verify we came from a bad place and it was man made, that was hard pill to swallow. I was so into a shoeing system that at the time I believed was the best for all. I had one of the best farriers and I trusted 100% and we were friends. But he lost the plot and so had my horses feet. When it was so bad and Flynn was shouting and I wasn't listening as I so believed my farrier and I questioned again I was sacked as a client. There was no choice.
For me there is not a farrier I have seen that I would trust my horse again with. I wish I could and have had that choice. Learning and knowing what I know means BF is the only way for us to go and stick with at this time. Who knows what the future brings but for me to nail on a shoe to a living growing part is not for us. To me there is nothing good about it unless I can wipe out all I know in my mind.
But it is about choice for you all. This is for me and my horse. His feet have come on so well. I know with the sensations he has, he can make a choice as well and does. If the ground it not good enough for what I ask he says No I cant. He has preservation for his own welfare. If it is slippy or uneven he takes real care and slows or picks his way, unlike the shod horses I go out with, who plod on regardless. If it is real stony he picks his way as a horse would do given that choice. But as his feet improve he is able to handle harder conditions or we adapt it for him with boots or pads. I dont set out to make him feel uncomfortable and ride out regardless just because I wont shoe.
KC has brought out a product which when fully available with trained trimmers will aid that conditioning much quicker. That I await to test out on Flynn. It is why I say until something else comes along to change what I have to work with this at this time. I work with what I have. That can be viewed on his web site.I would suggest OP checks this out.. it is only around the corner of being out there to try.
So to the OP.. 2 years on and a hiccup.. or a real big mountain..that has to be for her to decide.. but I would say dont jump back into shoes unless you have investigated all you can with the best trained trimmers. If you do put shoes on, at least you have given the foot a time out and you can still go back to trying again another time.
|
|
pip
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 3,797
|
Post by pip on Dec 31, 2007 13:13:34 GMT 1
Well thank you all. It is definitely a case of "not quite there." I have used pads with in-hand walking and hack out in boots once a week, but it is harder in the winter to use boots as they are slippy off road. I do need to buy another pair, having worn out my second set of Easyboot Epics but wondered if the the Cavallo would have better grip. I looked at the Grips but they said not to use much on the road. My riding is more road than off-road, but the Epics are lethal in the mud and last time I tried them I thought my horse would fall over.
I have an excellent trimmer, and will probably sob on his shoulder next time I see him! I do not have an arena, so have grass or the lanes to ride on. Maybe it is the soft ground, maybe feeding him sugar beet pulp (unmolassed), maybe eating more grass (they go out into an orchard in the winter to rest the "starvation paddock". I wouldn't like to stop turning him out into a field. Ironically his pony friend has the same diet but in smaller quantities and has wonderful feet.
|
|
|
Post by Susan on Dec 31, 2007 13:45:13 GMT 1
Pip it isnt easy..and even though I am so sold on what I do, I would never say this is for the fainthearted. You seem to be in similar place to me as it is grass land or roads and tracks. I do have a cushionride school to go in but although that allows easy riding it isnt conditioning and often can seem boring. But I try to find ways to occupy us, long reining, clicker work and schooling under saddle. But the rest at weekends when I can ride ( at present on crutches so no riding at the mo) is same.
I do get fed up though honest and do sometimes wish I could tack up and go, dont be surprised I say that. But as I explained in my heart I cant go back. I am sure you talk to your trimmer and get so back up.. and as I have said grass can be such a difficult one for horses not such a simple feed hey!
When I chatted with a DAEP I know ( not my trimmed but another friend locally) he said way to test it was take horse off the grass for about 3 days and see if that makes a difference. I personally am son loathe to do that, as I prefer him out, but it might be an idea to test out. He as I said has had his horse go through similar lately, go so well over everything then come iffy again. We both went this route at a similar time as well.
It is good to ask questions from as many as possible but do cry on trimmers shoulder and remember many of us have been there.
I agree Easyboots are not good in mud, in fact terrible! I have them, the bares changed to upbuckles, the grips are much better but dont wear well on tarmac.. I cant speak of cavellos as they dont come up big enough for Flynn, But Old Macs G2 are supposed to be much better, easier to fit as well. You can replace the base of your easyboots by the way.
Yann has renenigades, I think and they are supposed to be superb.. the much long awaited boot.!
I do tape on pads to hack out in, but cant go on wet grass as they are lethal then only good when dry..
Look out the KC forum and go into the shop and look at the new wrap I have spoke about. If your trimmer is KC trained he/she will have heard about it.
Let us know how it goes and good luck
|
|
|
Post by Yann on Dec 31, 2007 18:13:32 GMT 1
I know quite a few people have said nuts to that and used them anyway, I know I have and I've been using them as hind boots on all sorts of surfaces for several months and haven't noticed any problem yet other than the front of the first bit of tread getting a little mashed. Having them behind makes all the difference on dodgy going, even when used with bares in front. G2's are very good on and off road but I hated using them regularly in plentiful mud as they're a pain to clean off afterwards and the velcro gets weary. I have Renegades in front and after a couple of minor misfires to begin with when I tried using pads in them, I would now consider them to be far and away the best hoof boot yet made. If you happen to have a UKNHCP trimmer and a horse with smallish feet get pestering them for a pair and all your troubles will be at an end
|
|
|
Post by Susan on Jan 1, 2008 2:02:22 GMT 1
Yann how large do the renegades come up do you know?
Have you seen the new wrap on KC web site.. the results have been amazing..
|
|
|
Post by justinej on Jan 1, 2008 12:36:54 GMT 1
I know quite a few people have said nuts to that and used them anyway, I know I have and I've been using them as hind boots on all sorts of surfaces for several months and haven't noticed any problem yet other than the front of the first bit of tread getting a little mashed. Having them behind makes all the difference on dodgy going, even when used with bares in front. G2's are very good on and off road but I hated using them regularly in plentiful mud as they're a pain to clean off afterwards and the velcro gets weary. I have Renegades in front and after a couple of minor misfires to begin with when I tried using pads in them, I would now consider them to be far and away the best hoof boot yet made. If you happen to have a UKNHCP trimmer and a horse with smallish feet get pestering them for a pair and all your troubles will be at an end The new boot from the makers of the epics will be out this year and isn't it similar to the renegade. That may well solve alot of problems for people?
|
|
|
Post by Susan on Jan 1, 2008 12:44:33 GMT 1
Just..I hope they make them in BIG sizes as so often they do not . but as epics are made by easyboot I hope they will and they are also able to be put on easily and not required an injured back in the process! Will they also cope on wet grass and slippy mud? I hope so.. many questions still need answers.
Then again the new wrap is supposed to be able to condition the foot structure in a way that boots will not be required now that will be progress!
|
|
|
Post by Yann on Jan 1, 2008 12:49:00 GMT 1
I hope so! ;D As I've said before a little competition seems to be a good thing
|
|
Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,733
|
Post by Azrael on Jan 1, 2008 13:04:35 GMT 1
The Perfect Hoof Wear thing from KC looks quite interesting! There's even pics of it up on the site now instead of the vague promises about it being amazing with no real info there was last time I went looking Can see one small problem with using that in the UK though.. attached to the foot and stays there for three weeks.. is it close enough to being a 'shoe' for the FRC to be able to have a paddy?
|
|
|
Post by Yann on Jan 1, 2008 15:56:43 GMT 1
Cost too, the packs seem to be about £40 each, not clear whether that's for two feet or four either, or how it's going to provide more stimulation than a foot with nothing on it at all. Can see it being a useful tool for keeping crocks just out of shoes or recovering laminitics comfortable as an alternative to booting for turnout though.
|
|
|
Post by justinej on Jan 1, 2008 17:22:28 GMT 1
Can see one small problem with using that in the UK though.. attached to the foot and stays there for three weeks.. is it close enough to being a 'shoe' for the FRC to be able to have a paddy? Yes it is, by UK standards it is a shoe so no-one except a farrier will be permitted to fit this product over here.
|
|
|
Post by june on Jan 1, 2008 19:02:35 GMT 1
The Equicast product is already being distributed here and is being applied by owners. That also stays in place for 2-3 weeks. The FRC haven't complained about it yet so it will be interesting to see what happens with KCs wrap. It is pretty obvious why someone needs training to put nails into a horse's foot but the FRC will look very small minded if they attempt to stop something being applied to horses' feet that is beneficial to their welfare. Doesn't mean they won't try but given this probably won't take over the world I doubt it is really worth their while.
|
|
|
Post by chrissiew on Jan 1, 2008 20:35:38 GMT 1
Pip - having been in your shoes (no pun intended!) with my mare - 2 years into transition and whilst doing well not quite "right"- I was nearing the decision of putting shoes back on. I left it that long purely because I felt that putting the shoes back on was covering up some major metabolic issues that were causing her problems. For 18 months of that 2 years I thought she was on the "best" diet possible - turned out that she wasn't - on paper it was right - Top Spec Balancer/Mag Ox etc etc etc.
She's now been off the Top Spec since September, on Feedmark Benevit and Silver Lining Herbs Kidney mix and the difference in her feet is frankly amazing. She hasn't taken a "footy" step since being off the Top Spec and the Silver Lining products have given us good foot growth for the first time. Their laminitis mix kept her stomping sound during the autumn lami season and out on more grass than she could tolerate in the spring when on the Top Spec.
Its worth having a play around with the feed if you want to stick with it, as I thought I had her on the best products for her feet, but they just didn't suit her. i can thoroughly recommend Lyn and Johnny Summers at Silver Lining Herbs (www.silverliningherbs.co.uk). Every product I have tried from them as worked for my mare and we have turned such a huge corner.
Having said all that, I don't see putting shoes back on as a bad thing if that is what suits you and your horse.
She is now rock stomping sound and nothing bothers her at all.
|
|