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Post by julz on Feb 11, 2014 11:14:41 GMT 1
Of dogs that is. Didn't want to upset Antares on her thread of her new puppy. Tail docking here in Scotland is illegal for any reason. If the pups have been born in Scotland then go to England for a few days in order to have their tails docked is still illegal. ( A total ban on docking came into force on 30th April 2007, with NO exemptions. It is illegal to take a puppy outside of Scotland to get its tail docked. - See more at: www.thekennelclub.org.uk/activities/dog-showing/already-involved-in-dog-showing/competing-with-docked-or-cropped-dogs-in-the-uk/kennel-club-advice-on-docking/#sthash.hew3X3Lb.dpuf)In England it is permissable to dock them for working if you can prove you are going to work the dog (I still think it shouldn't be allowed, what if the dog doesn't want to work?) but that doesn't mean all pups from the same litter are going to be worked. How can you tell a pup will work if less than 5 days old? In all I think it's inhumane to dock a tail unless it's because of an accident. Dogs, cats etc need their tails for balance.. Thoughts? |
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Post by gwenoakes on Feb 11, 2014 12:30:01 GMT 1
I have never liked dogs tails being docked, but have to hold my hand up, have had pups where their tails have already been docked.
When I was a looooooot younger you didnt see many dogs with tails docked.
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Post by janwilky on Feb 11, 2014 13:05:51 GMT 1
I don't have a strong view either way, I know a lot of docked working dogs and I know plenty of undocked pets and I don't see a lot of difference, other than the working dogs are usually leaner, fitter and better trained and they love their work. However, I do think that if a dog is bred for and spends its time crashing energetically through dense undergrowth (and they don't actually have to be working for that to be the case) then a long tail is a distinct disadvantage and can get badly injured. I don't think it's inhumane if done properly, but I don't like to see very short-docked tails (cockers are traditionally docked quite long anyway). I didn't have any choice about Scamp's tail, it was docked before we bought him, all I can say is it never caused him a moment's bother, it was still plenty long enough for him to wag it merrily and it most certainly didn't affect his balance. And he could still chase it and just about reach  . He used to get very upset about burrs getting caught in his tail and back legs, it was the only thing that ever bothered him, getting them out was really difficult and would have been even worse if his tail had been longer. I think there are far worse things that can happen to a dog than tail docking. Being left at home for hours on end by so-called loving owners who go out to work and leave their stressed dog on its own, day after day, being one of them. Or being given too much food and insufficient exercise and mental stimulation. The people I know who have (docked) working dogs all have very happy, well-adjusted and healthy animals who absolutely live for their work, and it's a joy to watch them just as it's a joy to ride a horse who loves its job. I'm sure those dogs would still be happy if they weren't docked, but I don't see that docking causes them any problem whatsoever. |
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Post by antares on Feb 11, 2014 13:34:40 GMT 1
Agree Janwilky - I have three working dogs with docked tails including the pup and they all seem to get on fine and don't have any balance issues. I also have one pet dog who doesn't have her tail docked & she's fine too.
Thank you for not bringing this up further on my Ludo thread Julz, that is appreciated.
In Ludo's case - all but two of the pups were reserved prior to birth, we reserved one a day after birth and the final one was either to be kept by the breeder or sold to a working home (in the end has gone to a working home). These puppies weren't up for grabs to none working homes and deposits were paid over within the first few days so in this particular case it was known that all puppies were to be in working homes and would not just be 'pets'. I am sure this is not always the case but if you go to any good working dog breeder, full litters are often reserved before or just after birth and the really good ones have waiting lists so again in those cases, they will know the pups are going to working homes within the 3-5 day window
How do we know the puppy will want to work? Instinct - it is just in them to work, they are hunt, point and retrieve dogs and they will certainly hunt & end up in various tricky situations even if you don't want them to (ask annas lol) although the pointing sometimes needs 'switching on' by going to ground with game but you don't teach them these things, it is a natural occurance, they can't decide they don't want to, they just get lost in it.
I can't comment on other working dog breeds as I don't have any experience with them
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Post by annas on Feb 11, 2014 15:33:25 GMT 1
Instinct - it is just in them to work, they are hunt, point and retrieve dogs and they will certainly hunt & end up in various tricky situations even if you don't want them to (ask annas lol) Yep i can vouch for that with GSPs!!!  It is a tricky one this and to be honest one that everyone will always disagree on. I am kind of on the fence, i understand why it is done but also i understand why people don't like it. Oscar is a GSP but he was brought from a non-working line, mum was a pet and dad was a show dog. For that reason his tail is not docked, however he did have his dewclaws removed (maybe a seperate discussion  ). I am glad he didn't have his tail docked, not because i disagree with it particularly but it is part of his character. His tail does tell me a lot about his mood, it is part of his body language. Even if it does blooming hurt when he wags it on your leg and it whips you!! That said i do understand why working dogs have docked tails. When i walk Oscar he has no regard for personal safety if there is something in the bush he will happily zoom in after it and flush it out. So yes there is a risk he would injure his tail. However he is not out there doing it all day or for hours at a time. I guess that reduces his risk of injury compared with a working dog. It doesnt eliminate it though and i really hope nothing ever happens to it. I guess the other reasons why they dock working dogs is because they pick up debris as they go through the undergrowth, not really a problem for the GSP's thin stick of a tail. So for comestic reasons i don't agree, for working reasons yes there may be a good reason. However it must be done humanely and i don't like the really short bob tails that are left on some breeds. Knowing how much Oscar uses his tail, i would say that even working dogs should be left with some. Also to add that the risks are not just with working dogs. I recently heard of an agility dog that went through the weaves so fast it caused a horrific injury to its tail. So i guess injuries can occur anywhere, maybe just with working dogs the likelyhood of injury is higher. |
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Post by antares on Feb 11, 2014 15:51:11 GMT 1
For GSPs they aim to leave around 1/3 of the tail
some breeds are shorter though
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Post by lizpurlo on Feb 11, 2014 16:27:30 GMT 1
Another here with no strong opinion either way. A farmer friend did tell me about a collie of his years ago, which was involved in a freak accident, as a result of which he lost his tail - it had to be amputated. He was a really good sheepdog, but following the loss of his tail he just couldn't turn nearly so quickly! My farmer friend was surprised how much of a difference a collie tail makes when cornering sharply.  |
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Post by annas on Feb 11, 2014 16:34:47 GMT 1
Interesting. I guess it can make a difference if they have a tail and lose it. But what if they never had it in the first place? They must adapt to live without it from the beginning?
I guess that is something you can never know.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 17:21:37 GMT 1
Well, we have a JRT with a long tail - he's not from working stock and was never going to be worked. He caught his tail 2 years ago on brambles and it took so long to heal the vets were talking about a GA to amputate it to prevent it going septic.
We avoided that, but now his tail has no hair on part of it because there's so much scar tissue and if he wags it too much near a wall or doorway he'll make it bleed and splatter blood all over himself and we then have days or weeks of trying to stop it again.
In all honesty he'd have been better off having it docked as a pup, he's regularly rooting around in brambles and zooming in and out of the undergrowth - that's in his nature and instincts - and it wouldn't be any great surprise if he has to have his tail amputated at some point in the future if he keeps damaging it.
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Post by janwilky on Feb 11, 2014 17:36:21 GMT 1
Instinct - it is just in them to work, they are hunt, point and retrieve dogs and they will certainly hunt & end up in various tricky situations even if you don't want them to (ask annas lol) Yep i can vouch for that with GSPs!!! It is a tricky one this and to be honest one that everyone will always disagree on. I am kind of on the fence, i understand why it is done but also i understand why people don't like it. Oscar is a GSP but he was brought from a non-working line, mum was a pet and dad was a show dog. For that reason his tail is not docked, however he did have his dewclaws removed (maybe a seperate discussion ). I am glad he didn't have his tail docked, not because i disagree with it particularly but it is part of his character. His tail does tell me a lot about his mood, it is part of his body language. Even if it does blooming hurt when he wags it on your leg and it whips you!! That said i do understand why working dogs have docked tails. When i walk Oscar he has no regard for personal safety if there is something in the bush he will happily zoom in after it and flush it out. So yes there is a risk he would injure his tail. However he is not out there doing it all day or for hours at a time. I guess that reduces his risk of injury compared with a working dog. It doesnt eliminate it though and i really hope nothing ever happens to it. I guess the other reasons why they dock working dogs is because they pick up debris as they go through the undergrowth, not really a problem for the GSP's thin stick of a tail. So for comestic reasons i don't agree, for working reasons yes there may be a good reason. However it must be done humanely and i don't like the really short bob tails that are left on some breeds. Knowing how much Oscar uses his tail, i would say that even working dogs should be left with some. Also to add that the risks are not just with working dogs. I recently heard of an agility dog that went through the weaves so fast it caused a horrific injury to its tail. So i guess injuries can occur anywhere, maybe just with working dogs the likelyhood of injury is higher. Some good points Annas. Spaniels also have absolutely no regard for their own safety when they're hunting, there are times when my jaw has dropped with horror to see Scamp emerging from a seemingly impenetrable thicket dragging a heap of brambles, panting happily with blood dripping from his tongue where he'd been running open-mouthed through the thorns. Never slowed him down. Spaniels also have hairy tails (unlike GSPs) and getting caught in a thicket by the tail is not pleasant. Docking removes the bit with the longer hair that would easily tangle in vegetation, leaving a straighter, finer section that doesn't get caught so easily. I agree about the length of the tail though, I don't like to see Springers with very short tails. This is working cocker length: my handsome boy.  Re whether a puppy is destined to work, Scamp should have been: he was bred by one of the top gundog breeders, a very reputable one who has bred some of the best field trial champion cockers. Almost all of his dogs go to working homes, and I had plans to train him to do a bit of gundog work (we live in the middle of a shoot, literally). But for various reasons I didn't have enough time, so he remained a pet. Also Scamp had a habit of barking when he saw pheasants: an instinctive response, but not a good one for a gundog and it would have eliminated him from a breeding programme if he'd stayed with his breeder. A good trainer could probably have overcome it in time, he was what is known as a hard hunting dog, not an easy one to train but intelligent and so, so keen. But in the end he made a fabulous, if highly energetic, pet. He would have been a problem dog had he lived in a town or not had enough exercise, but we managed to keep him happy and busy and as long as he'd had a decent walk he was content to snooze by my feet as I worked at the computer. Which is a long-winded way of saying it's not always possible to know whether or not a dog will work when it's a tiny puppy. |
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Post by portiabuzz on Feb 11, 2014 17:45:51 GMT 1
um i dont want to upset anyone but it mades me shudder when thinking of docking  same as disbudding of goat horns it just seems wrong to me |
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Post by portiabuzz on Feb 11, 2014 17:46:09 GMT 1
i do love all of you on here so not going to rant  |
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Post by janwilky on Feb 11, 2014 17:57:32 GMT 1
I think it's fine to disagree PB, the main thing is to make sure we can disagree with respect for one another's views. It wouldn't be much of a discussion group if we all had exactly the same opinions |
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Post by portiabuzz on Feb 11, 2014 17:59:21 GMT 1
haha i know, just meant i really like everyone on here so was trying to be diplomatic. i dont agree but hey, doesnt make me like any of you any less  |
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Post by antares on Feb 11, 2014 19:08:03 GMT 1
Lol PB, everyone is entitled to their own opinions
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. He used to get very upset about burrs getting caught in his tail and back legs, it was the only thing that ever bothered him, getting them out was really difficult and would have been even worse if his tail had been longer.
). I am glad he didn't have his tail docked, not because i disagree with it particularly but it is part of his character. His tail does tell me a lot about his mood, it is part of his body language. Even if it does blooming hurt when he wags it on your leg and it whips you!! 
