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Post by ladyndibs on Feb 11, 2014 20:16:24 GMT 1
I can't stand the thought of docking a dog's tail and as the farmer found with his collie it does make a differance to the dog. I'm not sure if a hairy tail or a relatively bald one is more at risk from injury but either way I don't like it and have yet to be 100% convinced it's in the dog's interest, as mentioned with the agility dog accidents do happen though as so many dogs are still docked 'just in case' I doubt we'll ever know if it is truly in their interests.
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Post by Solly on Feb 11, 2014 22:08:02 GMT 1
Where I live, most spaniels & terriers are pets rather than working dogs. And most have docked tails. It's wrong in my opinion. Why do Dobes & Rotties have docked tails?
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Post by julz on Feb 12, 2014 0:08:32 GMT 1
wow.. not been on here all day It wasn't intended to upset anyone, just wanted views and pro's and con's on it.. Since docking was banned in Scotland I have seen more and more breeds with their tails.. Rotts, JRTs, GSPs, etc, and it is nice to see them, but obviously there will be reasons to amputate in a medical way such as Michellep said about her dog. As yet dog still has his tail, but if my dog had damaged her tail in a way that hurt it, and infection seemed rife, then ofcourse it would be a possibility... I didn't want to come on here with my brandishing stick, it's always good to hear people's views
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Post by julz on Feb 12, 2014 0:12:07 GMT 1
Solly I believe Rotts had thier tails docked to keep their tails from being caught in wheels when they were used to pull butcher carts. Much like dray horses had theirs docked to keep their hair from being caught in the wheels when pulling beer carts.
No idea about Dobes.
why do/did the Dobes have their ears shaved in order to make them stand prominent?
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Post by misty on Feb 12, 2014 0:18:57 GMT 1
With rotties and dobs I think it makes them look much more aggressive with docked tails. My daughter has a rottie and his tail goes with his smiley face.
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Post by annas on Feb 12, 2014 9:45:53 GMT 1
I am pretty sure with breeds like rotties and dobs it is more for cosmetic reasons. I really do not agree with that at all, in fact it is nice to see these breeds with tails. Also nice to see boxers with tails. I used to think they looked strange (as you never saw a tail on these breeds) but now it is becoming the norm which is nice.
I may regret this but i think to make a proper decision on where i stand i would need to see how it was done... I am sure it is done badly in some countries or by unlicensed people, but i think i would need to see what they do in the UK as a standard veterinary proceedure. Off to Google...
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Post by ladyndibs on Feb 12, 2014 10:26:31 GMT 1
I thought actually looking it up was probably the thing to do after reading your thread Annas, there was a youtube video, the vet stated that in part it was to make the dog look better, I got as far as him starting to do the dew claw, I couldn't watch any more. Even if it's done under sedation (it won't be as it'd be too risky in a pup so tiny)I still think it's wrong. It's a strange world we live in, a lot of people consider it wrong to pull a mane or tail but to cut into a puppy at a few days old with what was nothing more than a fancy pair of scissors is ok because they're young and they'll forget, it's barbaric, and that was just the dew claw. A short item from the dog's trust www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/d/docking/
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Post by cookie on Feb 12, 2014 10:46:19 GMT 1
Hmm. I thought it was illegal, must have picked up on the scottish bit...
I guess my gut feeling was that I don't like it. However, I am grateful for the posts about working dogs as I really wasn't aware of all the issues.
I do think if its done young there will be adaptation to any possible balance issues.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by janwilky on Feb 12, 2014 11:18:11 GMT 1
I haven't seen it done. The only thing I can say is having met tiny, recently docked puppies they were exactly the same bundles of fun and cuddles as any puppy and didn't appear traumatised in any way. And Scamp was the most trusting dog I've ever had, one of his best qualities was an unshakeable belief in the goodness and kindness of humans, and he brought out the best in people as a result. I'm not saying that to justify the procedure, that decision has to be made on necessity as already discussed, but just to say my experience hasn't been of a traumatised pup.
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Post by julz on Feb 12, 2014 11:56:34 GMT 1
I think if it's a pup it is done (by a vet) with surgical scissors when pups are between 3 and 5 days old. for an older dog, the skin needs to be sliced open to the bone and cut between the bones otherwise the bone fragments could cause infection.
I do agree that if a baby pup has it done, then any balance issues are dealt with when they are beginning to walk anyway, and an older dog needs to relearn balance.
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Post by janwilky on Feb 12, 2014 13:27:49 GMT 1
I think if it's a pup it is done (by a vet) with surgical scissors when pups are between 3 and 5 days old. for an older dog, the skin needs to be sliced open to the bone and cut between the bones otherwise the bone fragments could cause infection. I do agree that if a baby pup has it done, then any balance issues are dealt with when they are beginning to walk anyway, and an older dog needs to relearn balance. Yes perhaps. I've been searching my memory for any suggestion of a 'different' balance in Scamp but I really don't think so. He was incredibly athletic and one of his favourite games was to race round in tight circles, half of each circle was on our garden terrace and the other half on the rough lawn 2 feet below and he literally flew up and down the stone wall, taking a tight turn as he did so. He never missed or lost his balance, ever. But cockers are long and low, so perhaps balance is a different issue in a longer-legged dog like a collie? Or perhaps it's just because it was done so young. I don't know, just musing.
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Post by ladyndibs on Feb 12, 2014 14:31:07 GMT 1
One aspect that concerns me far more than the possibly change in balance is the pain afterwards, real or imagined.
Amputees frequently report the sensation of pain in the amputated limb for weeks and months afterwards, I doubt it could be proved either way but I wonder if the dog feels the same with the amputated tail.
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Post by annas on Feb 12, 2014 14:48:36 GMT 1
Well i did have a bit of a search about how it is done but didn't come up with much. You tend to find that the people who are for docking say one thing and the ones against say another. Dont get access to You Tube here so maybe i will have a look later.
Interesting point about amputees although you are right i doubt it is one that can be proved. Although i guess a limb is a bit more severe than a tail (not saying a tail is insignificant but it isnt weight bearing or anything). Also a human that has lost a limb has obviously spent most of their life with that limb, so the body will miss it when it is gone. Maybe that is what causes the sensations. It would be interesting to know if peoplewho lose a limb very early in life have the same sensations.
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Post by Hannah on Feb 12, 2014 15:18:11 GMT 1
Interesting discussion and good to see that despite some strong feelings everyone is being polite! I have two Jack Russells, one I got from my auntie who bred her, all were docked as tiny pups. All of the puppies went to farm homes or to work for the hunt (that is another discussion ) I am sure that mine would have damaged her tail by going through undergrowth/caught it on barbed wire/been zapped MANY times by electric fencing if it had been left "entire". The biggest problem that I can see with her, is docked dogs can't demonstrate such clear body language without a tail, obviously spaniels usually have longer docked tails so it would be less of an issue with those types. My other is a Dogs Trust special, looks like a big JRT on steroids, he may be a cross, he may be a massive JRT, he may have been the result of a planned or unplanned cross but he was docked at some point before we got him. He has no problems with balance etc, and believe me, he can shift! He too, I am sure would have injured his tail while out chasing rabbits and going through the thickest undergrowth and hedges. I am sure that if their tails are taken off at a later date, that it would have a much bigger affect on their balance/agility. One big advantage ( ) is that neither of my dogs can knock things off coffee tables and I don't get whipped by any tails if the dogs are excited
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Post by Hannah on Feb 12, 2014 15:35:42 GMT 1
why do I do this? Just googled "why do dobermans have their tail docked" and discovered they also used to have their ears cropped. The suggested reasoning being to make it harder for an intruder to grab hold of their ears or tail? Tails used to be docked because (according to Wikipedia ) "in the United Kingdom a tax was levied upon working dogs with tails so many types of dogs were docked to avoid this tax. The tax was repealed in 1796 but that did not stop the practice from persisting."
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