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Post by Ally S on Jan 14, 2013 17:52:51 GMT 1
The RSPCA have been involved for a long time and there is plenty of evidence regarding this mans systematic neglect of horses. I'm sorry if anyone finds my views offensive, or thinks me cold and heartless, but until someone can assure me that the photos are NOT of his horses, including this one www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8...in/photostream (which was allegedly taken by the RSPCA of one they rescued off him), and that he is a reformed character I will continue to believe as I do. I'm an animal lover - I cannot abide cruelty or neglect, and that is what this man has done for years. What I'm struggling to understand is why the same emotions have not been expressed for other neglect cases in the past. When did any of us head down to James Gray's place in Amersham to check his needs are met? Or maybe set up a facebook page to support him? Finally, while anything that can be done to help the horses is great, people need to think a bit about the poor old land owner being trying too hard to make Clwyd's squat too cozy.
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eden
Olympic Poster
Posts: 662
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Post by eden on Jan 14, 2013 18:07:13 GMT 1
Why does he need so many horses? so many people keep to many and can't afford to keep them that's why we have cases like this :-(. I'm not sure how many he has been left with?
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Post by KimT on Jan 14, 2013 19:07:11 GMT 1
I have to agree with lisa re the foal. I too thought he just didnt seem to care cause he wanted the new horses. Michelle seemed to show more emotion.
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Post by Catrin on Jan 14, 2013 19:10:57 GMT 1
The RSPCA have been involved for a long time and there is plenty of evidence regarding this mans systematic neglect of horses. … until someone can assure me that the photos are NOT of his horses, including this one www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8...in/photostream (which was allegedly taken by the RSPCA of one they rescued off him) … The photo is not compatible with the information that Kelly posted that the RSPCA cannot release photos as their photos are sub judice until April's court case. Nor is it compatible with them visiting in February and showing a photograph taken in December 2011, of a horse they took away ten months earlier. It is also curious that they didn't load the photo until over one year later. The photo taken on December 18, 2011 was loaded on to the Flickr page on January 9, 2013. And once more, like the photos, this isn't evidence but hearsay.
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Post by Catrin on Jan 14, 2013 19:26:53 GMT 1
I have to agree with lisa re the foal. I too thought he just didnt seem to care cause he wanted the new horses. Michelle seemed to show more emotion. His emotion is typical of the locals I have known for nearly seventy years. While the animal is alive, they give it all it needs. When it is dead they can do no more, for that one, but there may be a few hundred more that still need looking after. After all, if you farm cattle or sheep, death is part of your business practice. I remember my twelve year old son coming home from school rather upset. A girl from the next village had been updating the class each day for months about the pet lamb she was rearing. That day she had come in overjoyed, her lamb had made 15 kg carcass weight, and her father, the local butcher was really pleased. Clwyd is a farmer, horses were his livelihood, and he's seen dead foals before, like the last time, he moves on.
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Post by Ally S on Jan 14, 2013 19:35:49 GMT 1
Catrin wrote (still can't get the hang of this blinkin' quoting!! 'His emotion is typical of the locals I have known for nearly seventy years. While the animal is alive, they give it all it needs'. Give it all it needs? Catrin, this man is being prosecuted for his appalling neglect of his horses. We saw that in the program, and maybe re read the RSPCA email Kelly posted. It's lovely to be kind and compassionate, but we need to be realistic as well. Other wise regarding my previous post. True Catrin! Which is why as I said previously I think we need to establish the truth, and I think that will come out in the court case if not before. The picture I posted is alleged to be one of his horses. Who knows? It's certainly not any less relevant than posting a photo of a nice sunset with a horse in it to argue that there was no proof of neglect.
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Jan 14, 2013 19:40:54 GMT 1
What I'm struggling to understand is why the same emotions have not been expressed for other neglect cases in the past. When did any of us head down to James Gray's place in Amersham to check his needs are met? Or maybe set up a facebook page to support him? Well Ally, until these photos are actually proved beyond doubt to be Clwyd's horses which at the moment they aren't, we only have the TV programme to go on, and none of his horses looked remotely like the poor emaceated creatures that were found at James Grey's place. I think you will find that we are all at least Horse lovers on this forum, but it is also right to care about human beings, and I too, am now on the fence about this one.
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Post by KimT on Jan 14, 2013 19:42:41 GMT 1
Give it all it needs? It died because he took on more horses after he was told to reduce his herd!! Thats y michelle was so annoyed. It died because of him. He certainly didnt need more horses on his land. I know to farmers a death is a death but they dont usually call the sheep their children and claim to love them.
Better jump back on that fence.
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Post by Ally S on Jan 14, 2013 19:50:29 GMT 1
specialsparkle3 yes of course we're all animal lovers. I apologise if my posts implied anything other. I just don't believe we know the truth yet and if I'm wrong I'll be really happy to accept it. I also care about people - I just care more about the welfare of animals being neglected and whatever the circumstances of the owners.
That fence is getting awfully busy!!
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Post by Catrin on Jan 14, 2013 20:04:54 GMT 1
… The picture I posted is alleged to be one of his horses. Who knows? It's certainly not any less relevant than posting a photo of a nice sunset with a horse in it to argue that there was no proof of neglect. Exactly, and it isn't any more relevant either. At least the picture I posted was taken by an impartial passer–by and gave a grid reference and name of the farm. The other photos could be anywhere and anybody's horses.
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Post by Catrin on Jan 14, 2013 20:07:33 GMT 1
I didn't say they identified needs adequately, but then neither do many big–prize–winning equine competitors that we know of.
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Jan 14, 2013 20:16:22 GMT 1
Foals die at any time I have known one canter across a field and drop dead at the owners feet. As to his emotions well he could have been more upset I suppose then everyone would have said he was putting on to get sympathy. It was very sad but we havent got any facts just supposition and hearsay and some unidentified photos which lets face it could have been taken anywhere So hutch up on that fence as I still believe in innocent until guilt is proven. At no time has anyone in authority suggested even the RSPCA that they had seen anything like dead or dying deformed horses in his care. Those photos look like still from another case for me but I may well be wrong but until someone in authority confirms them as his horses I will wait and see. I would never send money or goods to anything but a small registered and identifiable charity I am not that gullible
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Post by shan on Jan 14, 2013 20:29:12 GMT 1
I'm with you 3 as well - I don't know enough facts to judge, but, I do think - if you neglect or abuse your animals, you should be held responsible in some way, no matter what the reason. I'll probably get stern cyberlooks and/or berated for this, but I do, and always have cared more about the welafre of animals more than humans. It's obviously not that black & white.. it's not that I don't care about people - of course I do, what I mean is in the way that domestic animals don't have the choices we have, they get what they're given and that's their lot. If they're abused they can't ask for help, they have to put up with it until, maybe, some kind human speaks up for them and hopefully helps them. (Most) adults on the other hand, can ask for help, can sort themselves out, can make changes and can make plans & decisions about the future, we have the capacity to do that if we choose to. And it IS a choice.
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Post by KimT on Jan 14, 2013 20:50:35 GMT 1
He does need help to sort himself out but he should be responsible for another life until he can look after himself and them. I just feel sorry for the horses. If he doesnt care if they live or die then you can see why he didnt look after them.
I do not believe the photos are true to his case. He wouldnt have been allowed to keep any animals if those bodies had been found in his fields.
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Post by jackiedo on Jan 14, 2013 22:38:07 GMT 1
Nevertheless. Whatever the circumstances, he appears to be beyond providing the standard of care that is acceptable to most members of this forum. Understanding why, how... does not change that, Love may not be enough. And with limited funds perhaps it is better to put this one to bed and say enough is enough, Amazingly I have looked through this thread and seen support for this guy, with similar grounds that was lacking for Lesley Skipper. Tell me again. One question, no why, if whatevers... Do we think it is OK to keep horses like this?
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