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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Jan 13, 2013 20:08:33 GMT 1
I cant comment on the state of the ponies years ago according to that newspaper report there was no question of neglect or ill health of the animals in january 2009 What would concern me would be removing all his horses and evicting him from the land on his state of mind He may well be driven to take his own life not something I could have on my conscience. Sadly a letter from the RSPCA is also likely to be very one sided so to be honest I dont really believe either side in its entirety I would guess the truth lies somewhere in between He should be taken into some type of sheltered care and the ponies found a place of safety where they too could e supervised but the question then is who would pay for it and who would do the work to make sure neither the man nor the animals suffered I have met many animal hoarder some going from ponies to cats to dogs and back again most have tried to move on but end up in the same spot One such gent is a renown judge and breeder who surreptitiously still hoards in spite of being banned from owning horses Almost everyone of them has been close to cruelty/cruel due to lack of finances Horses often left hungry, feeet not done no money for worming or vaccinations Like Specialsparkle I have given up breeding and I am trying to cut back to just 2 ponies I can afford 2 to live the life of reiley but cant afford everything for the 4 mostly at the moment it is paying for them to be worked so they are physically and emotionally well cared for just wasted. I know they dont mind being lawnmowers but I am getting older and less fit so so I would like to make sure if they have to go from me they can lead a useful life It is my responsibility to make sure they have a good future as I either bred them or have raised them from foals
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Post by Catrin on Jan 13, 2013 22:01:15 GMT 1
He doesn't have mains electricity, though he does have a generator, he certainly doesn't have a phone and computer. … I think my main feeling is we should be waiting for facts and not assuming anything. Sorry Catrin, but we have no idea if he has a phone or not! I am of course taking Michelle Crowther's word for this and the fact that Clwyd is not listed in the local phone book. Of course he could be ex–directory. I appreciate that you don't need mains electricity for a landline, but although there is a very ancient TV aerial, there are no signs of a BT connection to his home; nor any sign of a socket in the house or a space that you might put a computer on. On that basis I feel confident to take Michelle's word. If I have any reason to doubt when I visit her next week, you can be sure I'll let you know. Until then, I am prepared to help this man in any way I can.
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suepw
Elementary Poster
What's Happenin!!
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Post by suepw on Jan 13, 2013 22:27:36 GMT 1
Me too Catherine and i would never have thought in a million years that the dgers would be so quick to condem, i truly thought that the people on this group would have shown a little more compassion and accepted Michelle Crowthers word, she has been helping to rehome these ponies for quite some time now, however, maybe we are the lucky ones having a little more local knowledge of Clwyd and Michelle!
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Post by mandal on Jan 13, 2013 22:47:06 GMT 1
I am actually sitting on the fence re this man and Michelle. As a total outsider I do see some serious practical issues which imo HE has to face and deal with at some point though. Great if many people want to help him in the long term, perhaps he wont have to then. What I am not sitting on the fence about is those photos, whenever, where ever they were taken and no matter who the horses belong/ed to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 9:11:51 GMT 1
Can I sit next to you, Mandal? No, I didn't like the way the ponies were being rounded up by the RSPCA. However, I equally didn't like watching Clwyd allowing that to happen when he could have made life easier for his ponies. And I even more didn't like Michelle's handling of the pony she had in.
My neighbour is not a million miles off this situation and as I posted about on the members' forum last year I called in WHW because of the state of some of her ponies. Because of her refusal to cooperate, WHW were obliged to get the assistance of the RSPCA and threaten police involvement. My experience of the RSPCA at that time was pretty well as Kelly's student has said. They worked with her to encourage her to stop breeding, reduce numbers, worm, get the vet out, etc. As a result, she has sold alf a dozen ponies, hasn't put mares in with the stallions and seems for the moment to be coping better - the ponies all look fine and the stallions are no longer being kept in on a foot of poo.
You could have made a similar programme about her, poor little old lady, dreadful divorce, loving her 'babies' as she calls her ponies (and as he called his) but still allowing them to get into that state. And no, don't feel sorry for her, she's a very unpleasant person.
We've only see what Channel 4 showed us. I have to say there were snippets that another side of Clwyd seemed to show through - laughing while his ponies were being herded, getting angry at Michelle over money.
As highlanderpony says, the truth is probably somewhere in between. It usually is.
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Post by wabuska on Jan 14, 2013 10:31:52 GMT 1
Yes, Liz.. yes.
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Post by clara81 on Jan 14, 2013 13:06:26 GMT 1
Those pictures are horrific and upsetting BUT they are almost five years old. That could be before Michelle got involved. He could have had 50 or 100 horses then for all we know. There were no horses on the programme anything like as bad as those. The letter from the RSPCA sounds genuine enough but if I worked for the RSPCA and had taken the battering they have this last week or so I'd be frantically trying to defend them too!
I'm not condoning the pictures but I think it's a bit unfair how last week everyone thought he was marvelous and now old pictures like these emerge and everyone's up in arms about him. People have short memories over things like this when it suits them- it's not all that long since a certain Welsh pony stud got done for the same thing and now people happily send ponies to them for producing! What would happen if old pictures from their stud suddenly re-emerged online?
The whole point of the programme was- do people in our society care more about animals than people, and I think this sudden backlash just proves they do.
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Post by KimT on Jan 14, 2013 13:50:14 GMT 1
I would like to perch on the fence too.
I don't like the way the black pony was handled and maybe more training needs to happen but at least it is getting the care it needs now (isnt that what is most important?). I don't like the way Clwyd was stood there laughing when he could have helped which if anyone cared about their animals, they would do.
I too didnt like Michelle's handling of the pony but once again, we have only seen a few seconds.
I think people tend to side with the animals more because it's not their fault. They were put into the situation by someone else who is failing to look after them correctly and are the innocents (much like children).
Everyone retires at some point but it seems to be the social norm for these people to keep going. Then they end up in these situations. Clwyd needs to be looked after. In sheltered accomodation or something similar. He clearly can't look after the horses without Michelles help and what if she gets injured and can't get there for a few days?
As for the pictures, you really dont know if they are real or not. Its incredible that they didnt show up before the program and even worse if the person who took them did nothing.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Jan 14, 2013 14:10:45 GMT 1
I think a lot of people idealise animals because it is easy to project what we want to onto them. Horses are not angels - they are not uniformly kind, giving, caring. They have a strong instinct to make relationships work, because their survival depends on a viable herd. But they are also greedy and often selfish and sometimes violent. They also need to be all of these things to survive, too.
People are very complex. They can be very difficult to deal with. They can provide us with a target outside ourselves for the anger we feel: "I would like to batter this human," is an acceptable thing to say, and it often focuses the anger we feel with ourselves and channels it outside us. People become black sheep, unredeemable, or little angels. Really vanishingly few of us are either. We are a huge mix of kindness, and selfishness, anger and love. People who have been injured by life (up-bringing, later accidents) are even more complex.
In order to deal with this complexity we need to we aware of what is good and bad in ourselves - we need to be aware that circumstances can, quite easily, push us into circumstances where we do and say things we would be horrified by if we were looking at the situation from the outside, knowing nothing of the hurt raging inside.
We need to love ourselves, first, and then love others - we are all loveable, and all beloved (or so I believe).
That said, we also need to work against casual cruelty and stupidity.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 14, 2013 15:16:21 GMT 1
"We are a huge mix of kindness, and selfishness, anger and love."
So true! But for some reason we humans often like to label people as 'all good' or 'all bad'. I had this wonderful poem once (must dig it out) on this very subject. Managed to talk to my father about it in his later days and it helped me 'grow' (if that doesn't sound too pretentious).
Thank you Rosemary for reminding me x
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Post by Catrin on Jan 14, 2013 15:18:34 GMT 1
… I don't like the way Clwyd was stood there laughing when he could have helped which if anyone cared about their animals, they would do. That was day one of the RSPCA visit, you should have continued watching. It is interesting that I made the mistake of thinking that the RSPCA had a least brought a large tarpaulin sheet to help with making a safer area for loading. I was told by a member of their staff that is was actually there to stop the cameras filming. It didn't work of course and we hear Clwyd shouting, "Hold on, hold on Mark!" as he runs into camera shot on the far side of the trailer, obviously assisting. The sheet is then hastily reinstated. Fortunately we haven't seen too much criticism of this. The inclusion of the clip was rather traumatic for Michelle, the young girl helping her was drowned a few weeks later, along with her boyfriend, trying to rescue her dog, which had been paddling in a flooded river, got out of its depth and swept away. It's interesting too, how little is quoted of Clwyd's feelings, which he only ever truly expressed in his own language: "I'm ashamed of my life and that I haven't got where I wanted to be in life. Do you understand? It's like a game of cricket, you're only in once." What came next made me quite sad, "You try your best … maybe what I do … isn't correct, is it?" The man realises there is a better way, but he has failed: as a parent, as a farmer, as a business man. The horses are his only hope to change that, but he can't afford to fail at that. Surely it is worth some effort to support him and raise his self–esteem. They also contrast with a photo, mentioning his previous farm and grazing horses, taken by a random passer–by on June 9, 2007. www.geograph.org.uk/photo/553167In Jan 2009, the local daily paper ran a story about Clwyd's eviction, saying that he had been granted extra time prior to eviction to sell his horses if he wised to move into a smaller property, with four acres, on the farm's estate. It reported: "Friend Joy Edwards said the horses were in good condition and had been passported pending their sale.
She said: “Last autumn a sale was agreed with an Anglesey dealer but during collection the horses stampeded and dispersed, and the deal was called off.
“All he was looking for was a three-month delay to give him time to dispose of the horses.” And of course it quoted Clwyd: "“They are my pension,” said Mr Davies. “I’m not going to give them away after 31 years as a breeder.”
In the 1980s his Arabs and Welsh breeds won Royal Welsh silverware but in recent years they’ve been left to roam freely on Mr Davies’ electrified holding."
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Post by KimT on Jan 14, 2013 15:49:45 GMT 1
One of the things that struck me about the photos is that I would assume that even the RSPCA would not leave a herd of horses with someone who had allowed them to die like that and left in the field. I could be wrong though. Or the person to took them who is now so full of self righteousness never did anything with them.
The problem is we all sit here, watch a heavily one sided program and think we know it all. We don't there were things all of us clearly didnt like about the program on both sides but we are never seeing the whole picture.
Clwyd definitely should not have that many horses and in that respect Michelle is doing an amazing job but he should also castrate his stallions so this doesnt happen again and then Michelle won't have to keep selling the products. She will be in a job for life otherwise.
Oh how the mighty have fallen comes to mind. But isn't this a similar situation as the Arab lady that was slated on here? The problem is that they get to an age where they cant cope anymore but wont 'retire'. Then what happens to the horses? The RSPCA have to march in like bulls in a china shop.
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Post by kizi on Jan 14, 2013 16:18:19 GMT 1
I don't know enough to really feel compelled to comment.. I have read everything and saw most of the c4 programme but personally, unless I am there in person things like this make me feel uneasy about commenting.. I can however comment from my point of view, being having lots of horses and ponies, half or more being rescued in bad state, a few home bred and a few others, and then shocking devastating grief. (Had someone walked in here 4 months ago with a camera they could have claimed I had thin, matted Ill looking ponies, but they had only just arrived here, but had you seen those pictures without knowing that how many people would jump to the conclusion that I had allowed them become that way... )
My immediate reaction to that shock was to get half my animals out of here ASAP because I immediately knew that I could not manage time/physically or financially to keep them at their current level of care. And people suggested I was acting too fast and needed to think first, I knew exactly what my priorities were, not me.. I did that before I allowed myself to grieve, I remained in total denial and totally numb until I had half gone, I have kept the half that need me and my care the most and in maintaining that I am still running myself into the ground. I always cared for the animals single handed mon-fri but did not have the financial concern, the uncertain future, the house cleaning, the shopping, the trips for feed, the cooking, the 16 hour days, 7 days a week etc etc etc Now, I am not saying that it's not understandable that someone with mental or emotional problems could let things spiral, I can now, very easily understand how that could happen.. Over the past few weeks I wanted nothing more than to not get out of bed, to not clean the house, to not go out in the pouring rain to stand while they each finished their feeds to ensure each got their own. But I just couldn't, I couldn't forget them, I couldn't not think, they need me, I must go do that.
None of that takes into account a lack of knowledge of worming/feeding/care/safety of animals, I was faced with over 30 animals single handed, now currently have 11 equines, 3 goats, 3 dogs, 2 guinea pigs, 1 cat and 5 ducks all of who have me bloody exhausted.. I hate asking people for help, don't want to be a burden. But I am fully aware of each ones care needs and time requirements, I am also aware that I still have too many.
In my book, there's just no excuse for an animal to suffer in any way. I am not saying he is wrong, I am just saying, I can understand how easy it would be for things to get out of control, but that it's not so easy for a genuine person to be ok with allowing that happen.. A very small knowledge of horses and 2 eyes is all it takes for a mentally sound person who cares to see the truth.. In my opinion..
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Post by mandal on Jan 14, 2013 16:34:28 GMT 1
Surely it is worth some effort to support him and raise his self–esteem. Of course it is and to help him. I believe the RSPCA have been trying to do this though. Whether it's just a case of someone he trusts or who has the skills to manage things very tactfully I have no idea. I do think he really needs help to come to terms with his situation re his capabilities, the security of his housing/land and be realistic about the current value of his 'pension'. I am very worried this aspect could cause big problems for anyone selling the horses on his behalf but of course I have no idea of the legal position on this or even if my worry is actually relevant in this case.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 16:51:33 GMT 1
I know you have the best of intentions, Catrin, but I really don't think the picture can be quite as clear cut in his favour as you seem (generously) to believe. Again, I can only speak from the experience of my neighbour but she can do a fantastic 'poor little old lady', and would for any cameras around, but in the next breath would f and blind at me over the fence, then accelerate towards me in her jeep.
I could also show you some photos of her place looking peaceful bathed in glowing sunset, while out of shot are piles of wire, heaps of muck, nails sticking out left right and centre, and sick ponies. Picture can lie.
I wonder if I'd be a bit more convinced by him if he'd shown just a jot of emotion at the dead foal.
Back to join the little huddle on the fence... snuggles in between Mandal and Rugrat...
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