|
Post by taklishim on Dec 8, 2011 22:00:14 GMT 1
But it is not what you are saying, it is all down to tone and innotation - we know they don't understand words but talking can be calming, motivating and supportive of body language and physical signals. What about in ridden work? I hate it when people do not talk to their hoses when riding, it is a vital extra tool when faced with awkward situations or just a bit of praise when things are going right Read more: ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gh11&action=display&thread=119280&page=4#ixzz1fykzHPFFthank heavens for that. I thought we were just totally abnormal. Hubby and I talk to them out riding (and in fact most other times as well)
|
|
|
Post by suzirock on Dec 8, 2011 22:51:39 GMT 1
I am finding this thread very interesting! Enjoying reading all the different points of view. I find it very difficult to type my thoughts and feelings accuratley so I normally don't bother, however on the topic of horse-onalities (and Parelli is the only example I have come across so can only comment on their take on it) I find it rather confusing!! When I attempt to understand the different horse-onalities my brain sort of shuts down and goes fuzzy and I can't see clearly any more - kind of a bit like when I did Maths A Level....!!!! It just seems to make a simple issue to me, far more complex than it needs to be. When I work with horses I am 100% tuned in to the horse that is in front of me - the basics I rely on are pressure/release, approach/retreat and my own ability to see what horses are trying to say when other people cannot (for whatever reason). You can get pretty far with those three things. (I am naturally a non chatty person so hardly say a word to my horses apart from 'hello' and 'see you later then' but Im like that in life too...too much human talking tires me out and too much noise dulls my senses....I need relative quiet to work at my best. Anyone else get what I mean? )
|
|
|
Post by june on Dec 8, 2011 22:53:47 GMT 1
Have resisted joining this discussion as I knew it would be time consuming. Have now got through the 5 pages!
I do treat horses differently depending on their personalities. However, I don't label their personalities, I just know what each horse is like. We have over 50 horses here and all of them are different. Their personalities do change though, so a horse that arrives that is nervous or difficult to catch often becomes much braver and starts to take an interest in people when they get treated gently and calmly. It happens quite quickly and after 3 or 4 weeks you forget they were ever nervous in the first place. Often doing a bit of basic clicker work changes their mindset in just one session. It doesn't happen with all of them though. Some that are nervous stay nervous for a very long time, if not forever. Whether that is really their personality or due to past experiences, or maybe a combination of both, I don't know.
Others that arrive are quite shut down. It is hard to tell what their personalities are at that stage. They don't really have one. They take a while to come out of their shells and sometimes become less easy when they do and feel able to voice an opinion!
|
|
|
Post by suzirock on Dec 8, 2011 23:01:51 GMT 1
Glad you did post though June, very valid points made, totally relate to what you are saying.
|
|
|
Post by shan on Dec 8, 2011 23:24:52 GMT 1
Sorry of this is a bit disjointed but I haven't read all the posts. I think there is a general rule about all animals (including humans) which is that we all have a place we're most comfortable in and work best in, a very basic example is some are leaders and some like it best when they're told/shown exactly what to do and don't have to make too many decisions. *Horses are completely justified in questioning others' abilities to do their job, they have to be or they wouldn't have survived. So when we have a 'naughty' or 'bossy' horse they're often just not sure why we're trying to take on a role we're not suitable for. We can see many examples of this when a person discovers a different way of being with their unhandleable horse and the relationship changes dramatically for the better. In this sense we can fairly reliably use the same techniques for getting the results we want, though obviously also tailored to suit the needs of the individual even from one second to the next, depending on character. I think horses don't have a sense of humour so much as a 'silly' streak when they play, and they will do this with horses or humans - though personally I've only seen them exhibit the 'silly' with humans they know and like. It's not the best word to describe what I mean, but you know when they get that glint in their eye and shake their heads about before bursting into a trot or run, a buck, a chase/chase me game? We definitely anthropomorphise too much, sometimes it's the only way we can relate - rightly or wrongly but we do. It's a massive help though, to watch herd dynamics, watch individual horses, and for the time we're with them try and be as much like them as we can - it's hard to be like a prey animal when we're so much more predator, but we can see things from that perspective at times when we connect with our horses, be in the moment, and when we catch glimpses of their world and react to it instinctively like they do. I agree with other posters, being with horses in a certain way definitely teaches us as much about ourselves as it does about our four-legged friends.
|
|
|
Post by rifruffian on Dec 8, 2011 23:52:15 GMT 1
There are certainly quite a few viewpoints posted in this thread that I just don't get. Shan, you have written that, during our time with any individual horse......the handler should try to be as much like the horse as he/she can be. Why ? What is the idea of that ?........and also that the handler should react instinctively like the horse does. Do you have time to educate me a bit about this viewpoint.....?
|
|
|
Post by shan on Dec 9, 2011 0:09:59 GMT 1
I think it's helped me a great deal, trying to see the world from my (first) horse's perspective - quite simply I started just watching him and his reactions when he was 'doing his own thing' in the field. I started to see what made him jump, what he was used to and didn't react to, and because he was a very jumpy horse I had to constantly be aware of that for my own safety when we were together. I started becoming very aware of things he would react to, so I could also react to them but in a different way, and because of my reactions he would change his accordingly - for example, maybe a bird flying out of a hedge.. very simply, I had fine-tuned my own senses to react as quickly as he did, so instead of me reacting to my horse's reaction, I could instead use that second or two to concentrate on 'not reacting' at all, and he would be influenced by me aswell as the scary stimulus. I hope that made sense!! I think alot of people do that, and perhaps don't realise they do because it becomes second-nature, but if we think about it we can consciously add to it. I have to clarify that I do not think we should be acting like prey animals at all times, by my 'react instinctively' phrase I mean we can train ourselves to choose whether to react or not, but have a sharpness honed to the degree that it becomes instincive for us - sorry for the confusion!
|
|
|
Post by rifruffian on Dec 9, 2011 0:33:45 GMT 1
OK shan thanks for that reply and while I do understand the text I hardly get the meaning......it's not unusual, I'm just a bit dim. One point I do choose to pick up on though is the idea you can fine-tune your own senses to react as quickly as your horse can.......mission impossible I would say. So I would just conclude this reply by throwing in the idea that in a human/horse relationship an element of dominance has to be present and it must be weighted in favour of the handler.
|
|
gillmcg
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,948
|
Post by gillmcg on Dec 9, 2011 7:56:09 GMT 1
I am going to go back over this thread and read it all as I think there are some valuable points here but just want to say very simply that in the horse/human relationship the human is either a worthy leader or not. That's all really. No personality, sense of humour, taking the mickey etc. They check us out in the moment and if we're not worth following then they don't......their responses may be heightened or not by their experiences but I think we owe it to them to be consistent so they have a chance of reading us rather than switching from one way of working to another.
|
|
|
Post by marychick on Dec 9, 2011 14:15:56 GMT 1
I think this is a brilliant debate and it's lovely to hear peoples different takes on things! Its seems a bit of a shame that some people feel the need to get hostile or put down other peoples opions though. Rather than assumming someone is stupid or wrong perhaps we should just take the time to try and understand things from their point of view and maybe take something from it! It's nice to see that this is what most people are doing on here! In my opinion this is exactly what we should do with horses too! Like a few others I haven't read every post so forgive me if I'm repeating what other people have said but to me it seems that horses do have different personalities but I think that's very different from thinking a horse is deliberately being difficult to spite the handler, I just don't think that's in their nature. As a handler you need to install confidance in a horse to follow you and the best handlers will have a range of tools in their belt to use in individual cases and individual circumstances and should be able to adapt their methods if things aren't working. Some people are better than this than others, and as a result it may be that the same horse will respond better to that person than another- Not because they know they can mess around with another handler but purely because better handlers will be clearer about what they want and will be able to adapt their questions if they feel the horse is not understanding. As Kelly says, horses are always asking questions and if we dont answer they will assume it is acceptable and continue. This is they fault of the handler and does not mean the horse is "naughty" I hope that makes sense?- I do tend to waffle! Mary
|
|
|
Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Dec 9, 2011 14:49:57 GMT 1
But it is not what you are saying, it is all down to tone and innotation - we know they don't understand words but talking can be calming, motivating and supportive of body language and physical signals. What about in ridden work? I hate it when people do not talk to their hoses when riding, it is a vital extra tool when faced with awkward situations or just a bit of praise when things are going right Read more: ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gh11&action=display&thread=119280&page=4#ixzz1fykzHPFFthank heavens for that. I thought we were just totally abnormal. Hubby and I talk to them out riding (and in fact most other times as well) Couldn't agree more- wanted to post something on this but didn't know how to word it. I'm always talking during training, my tone lets the horse know what I want, she knows when she is being praised by my tone and responds, she knows when I don't want something (ie bogging off- if I read her at the right time & she goes to do this my voice makes her think twice). It also helps me work out what i want to do. Plus I enjoy talking to my horses, better than talking to most people ;D
|
|
|
Post by laurac on Dec 9, 2011 15:02:52 GMT 1
Have'nt read all replies I'm afraid
I believe good horsemanship skills work with all horses regardless of 'personality' ie being a calm consistent leader and giving clear messages, listening responding, pressure release etc
However I think different energy levels are needed for different horses, for example my nervous rescue pony (due to past ill treatment/abuse so not necessarily his personality but how he became) can only handle very low energy levels whereas my big stressy warmblood is the opposite and often needs me to raise my energy levels to very high levels when he is having one of 'his moments' , to get his attention (get him listening) then i can lower them and he can lower his stress levels with me
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 15:25:22 GMT 1
I've started a new thread on voice commands as going off on a bit of a tangent
|
|
|
Post by sarahbing on Dec 9, 2011 19:26:55 GMT 1
Fascinating thread. I am genuinely surprised at people's different perception of language i.e. 'Problems' vs 'Challenges' and it was a good reminder that in my person to person communication, what I have been saying may not be what people have been hearing, so thanks for that timely nudge!
On the horse/people communication, I think my unease from labelling horses with 'personalities' is that I would then filter all their actions/behaviour through my belief system and judge it accordingly, thus not allowing the horse to grow and change, as June described so well.
Humans are very good at this. there was a famous psychology experiment in the 60's and (apologies if I have the details wrong) but the gist of it was that a group of students were selected and told they were to get the best teachers as they were the cleverest pupils and expected to get straight A grades. Lo and behold, they went on to achieve straight A greades. It was then revealed that, in fact, they had been chosen at random, as had their teachers! they had incorporated what they had been told into their belief system and acted accordingly, and achieved outstanding results as a result.
This demonstrates to me the power of human belief in the abcence of any actual reality, the ability of humans to find 'proof' of their preformed theories and the consequent danger of not approaching situations with a completely open mind and dealing with what is in front of you. Even then, you need to be pretty skilled to identify accurately what is in front of you! rambling now so I shall stop ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by marychick on Dec 9, 2011 20:21:19 GMT 1
That is a really good point sarahbing, there is always the danger of labelling the horse in a certain category and then of turning things in to a self-fulfilling prophecy where in by labelling a horse as spooky,for example, we could always be more tense around them and in turn make them spook more. I think as humans we do tend to do that alot whether we mean to or not! But I think you still need to be careful not to ignore horses individual differences. By that I don't necessarily mean try and fit them into a category but just be aware that some horses may be more sensitive then others, for example, and what works with one horse may not work with the next. I suppose we just need to find some middle ground where we're not labelling but we're acknowledging if the horse has different temperaments Very hard to do without labelling though you're right!
|
|