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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 14:25:34 GMT 1
Yes, I know what you're saying rj and jj, and I know others have also found it useful to have something like that as a starting place. I have, sadly, come across to many people for who it was also the ending place, in other words they took it as gospel truth and ended up with a frustrated horse and a frustrated human as the horse annoyingly wouldn't quite fit into the pigeohole assigned.
My fault for having brought up the infamous P word - I don't want this to turn into another Parelli bashing thread - it was more of an example of why I don't like fixing a horse's personality from the start.
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jinglejoys
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Post by jinglejoys on Dec 5, 2011 14:52:29 GMT 1
Yes you treat the horse/mule that turns up on the day
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Post by mandal on Dec 5, 2011 15:48:59 GMT 1
My fault for having brought up the infamous P word - I don't want this to turn into another Parelli bashing thread - it was more of an example of why I don't like fixing a horse's personality from the start. Yes, I do think categorizing horse personality traits is not what Lizp was intending to discuss. KFH has six categories I believe but can't remember what they are. He also now says they are not the be all and end all... For me the important things to learn were about horses, myself and how to train effectively beginning at the real basics. I still fail miserably at times despite knowing more than I did though. A real biggie for me has been to really think through my actions, beliefs and decisions and have more confidence that what I'm doing and how I'm doing suits me and my horses. This has taken me a very long time and some have been been long suffering in my wrestling with my thinking. lol Thanks to many members on here I'm finally getting there I think.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 18:35:20 GMT 1
Yes, I do think categorizing horse personality traits is not what Lizp was intending to discuss. KFH has six categories I believe but can't remember what they are. He also now says they are not the be all and end all... I think categorising personality traits is actually quite interesting to keep in the discussion , though. Although I can appreciate that it can initially be useful if it gets you thinking away from the naughty horse mentality and towards asking yourself what is actually at the heart of your horse, I do feel quite strongly about the detrimental effects of pigeonholing any being. The bit I didn't intend was to finger Parelli specifically, it was more as an example. I don't like it whoever does it. After all, you don't meet someone for the first time and think "introvert with whatever tendancies" and then work out your relationship with that person on that basis. You respond automatically to all the subtle nuances of that person's expression, verbal and physical. We should do exactly the same with our horses, as jinglejoys says, you relate to the horse or, more importantly mule , you have in front of you on the day. Whereas it should be fairly easy to do that with another human being because that's what we are wired to do (although some do struggle, I know), it's less easy with a horse as we have to take off our human glasses and put on horse ones instead, and then see the world through those eyes. Because, after all, the horse can't do the equivalent for us, so who else can but we?
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Post by medicinepony on Dec 5, 2011 19:00:10 GMT 1
I think if you have a starting point for an individual horse such as introvert or extrovert, right breain left brain it makes life easier as long as you use it as a starting point and don't get stuck there
one example for me is sage who is right brian introvert stallion illusion left brain extrovert mare
they all come in as a herd in the morning but when I am ready to work with them I need a different approach for both
sage needs my energy to be very soft and slow, if given that time he is very easy to work with. he does need a few minutes to think about it and is probably why things went wrong before I got him
Illusion on the other hand needs me to stand tall and have a bit ofdetermination in my approach, she is a very easy horse but if I had my energy low for her she would either ignore me or stand on my foot which she does often to people who don't pay attention
once we have established our introductions then its a case of the horse that has shown up, although the easier horse illusion hasn't had as much polished training as sage with long gaps between and can start of spooky away from home, although she can still be trusted with a child
sage has had more consistant work and looks to an outsider as if he is really chilled and laid back and is almost never spooky but only as long as I am with him but he will treat any new person as a fire breathing dragon until they either prove him other wise by their approach
if I were to continue to treat sage as an introvert when he is not in that frame of mind he will take over and we won't progress
with Illusion although mostly confidant and outgoing if she is a bit spooking with the wind and I push her she will loose respect and when she is not feeling spooky she will try to take over because I didn't live up to her standards of a leader
a bit waffly but really what im trying to say is that we need to make an initial assesment of the over all personality in order to connect and then move on to what is happening right now
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Post by rifruffian on Dec 5, 2011 20:30:11 GMT 1
how did parelli enter this conversation ? Off topic but it's put me in the mood for a pedantic post aimed at the membership of the pat parelli appreciation society. You guys say.......parelli has enabled you to become firm, fair, consistent and effective leaders to your horses.......you could not have learned this elsewhere.....why not? because you don't want to learn elsewhere, or you've already tried everywhere....or what? Just wondering......
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Post by taklishim on Dec 5, 2011 20:32:01 GMT 1
In all this, of course, horses are very capable of deliberate actions, of concious decisions
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Post by Yann on Dec 5, 2011 20:50:55 GMT 1
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jinglejoys
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Post by jinglejoys on Dec 5, 2011 23:26:48 GMT 1
how did parelli enter this conversation ? Off topic but it's put me in the mood for a pedantic post aimed at the membership of the pat parelli appreciation society. You guys say.......parelli has enabled you to become firm, fair, consistent and effective leaders to your horses.......you could not have learned this elsewhere.....why not? because you don't want to learn elsewhere, or you've already tried everywhere....or what? Just wondering...... Tried elsewhere
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Dec 5, 2011 23:59:30 GMT 1
We have 4 ponies with very different personalities, one is naughty and difficult, one is sharp but generous and loving but reactive, one is reactive to stimuli but gentle and kind and perfectly safe as she reacts away from you her daughter is solid and calm nothing fazes her, the first three were bought as foals the last was born with us. We are calm around them have strict boundaries enforced by body language never hit or shout at them but they are all very different. The naughty pony is a small male pony gelded at 18 months of age who is dominant and aggresive towards humans. You really have to stand your ground with body language and send him away until invited in or he will attack you. He has never been pushed around or beaten up never hit although he has been shouted at by someone he badly frightened when he went for them he was six months old when he came to me he was bred by a friend who is kindness itself to her horses. We both reckon his quirks come from being spoilt rotten by his mum who always let him get his own way and she doted on him. He is rising 7 now and you still have to tell everyone who meets him to send him away before they talk to him or he would hurt them The sensitive one is hated by all the other horses and is consistantly pushed out onto the fringes of the herd and no matter where she goes she is pushed to the edge and so she prefers people to horses and is very loving The reactive mare is noise sensitive and but is always aware of where people are she is the matriarch when she can be bothered but generally gives in to the bossy boy for peace and quiet. The baby is totally at ease with her life and loves everyone and everything around her and generally by pushing her way in can get anything she wants including the boys food. I find personalities fascinating because they were all brought up in the same environment and are handled the same quiet calm way that they are all so differen must either be genetic or formed in the first 4 months or so of their lives
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Post by mandal on Dec 5, 2011 23:59:50 GMT 1
Yes, I do think categorizing horse personality traits is not what Lizp was intending to discuss. KFH has six categories I believe but can't remember what they are. He also now says they are not the be all and end all... I think categorising personality traits is actually quite interesting to keep in the discussion , though. Apologies for making an assumption there. I still don't see how pigeonholing a horse in a set description is more help than potential for us to expect certain behaviours and see things in a less objective light. Of course I don't interact with many horses except my own but I still think looking at the horse, their reactions, stance, breathing, etc. etc. is a sounder guide to how the horse is likely to react (for safety as well) than applying a horseanality or whatever to a horse. For me any pigeonholing goes as far as, for example, the horse is on his toes, nostrils flared, head high, tense posture, snorting and or rapid breathing. My assessment is he is most likely frightened and may well be explosive, bargy or run and needs careful, sensitive handling and the situation altering so he can become calm. How is knowing what sort of personality he may be going to help in that scenario? To me that horse is telling me how he is feeling very clearly and I need to listen to and respect that... So I see (pidgeonhole if you like) horses as frightened, calm, relaxed, friendly, concentrating, distracted, understanding something, playful, aggressive, irritable, keen, expectant, sleepy etc. etc. On top of that I have got to know mine as individuals their likes and dislikes etc. That is most of the time as they all still have a capacity to surprize me. I'm sitting here now trying to give all my horses individual personality descriptions and I am failing miserably, perhaps I need to study categories/types of horses. Better to go to bed, I'm tired. Yann, I may have lost 20 categories in my memory somewhere, that wouldn't surprize me.
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Post by mandal on Dec 6, 2011 0:10:16 GMT 1
highlanderpony2002 to me you are describing what you have learned about your individual horses. For me this is a better way round than learning categories and fitting your horses to those.
I do think looking at categories is fun and interesting btw.
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Post by rifruffian on Dec 6, 2011 0:59:04 GMT 1
Well, returning to the 'Hempfling doctrine' on this subject......he has (I suppose as a result of his many years experience) produced his list of category of horse personalities and states.....'I have to have some idea of this before I can start'........ I see his point, at its simplest for example I would say that certain breeds, much more than some others, are hard wired to pick up fear and flight. That at least would surely influence the approach to training and handling....?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2011 9:28:35 GMT 1
Well, returning to the 'Hempfling doctrine' on this subject......he has (I suppose as a result of his many years experience) produced his list of category of horse personalities and states.....'I have to have some idea of this before I can start'........ I see his point, at its simplest for example I would say that certain breeds, much more than some others, are hard wired to pick up fear and flight. That at least would surely influence the approach to training and handling....? But that's like saying "this child has blond hair and was born in York so must be X". Certain breeds may tend towards certain traits but you can't base your training on a generalisation. You may again subconsciously have your view distorted by expecting to see something that isn't there, or missing something that is. In addition, a lot of any being's personality is shaped by experience - nurture + nature - so you may have very similar temperament foals, for example, who by the age of 3 have very different reactions because of what they have experienced. I will confess that, when I started going out and meeting horses while doing my case studies, I was guilty of preconceptions about different breeds, etc. Again and again these preconceptions clouded my judgement initially. The slow and gentle heavy horse I expected to meet turned out to be just as reactive as the warmblood, whereas the sharp child's pony was actually very soft, just anxious about the cones & stuff. Of course there are potential differences between breeds, genders, etc., but to start any sort of work on that basis is negating the horse you have in front of you in favour of a mere idea. If ask someone on the phone what breed their horse is, it's usually only so that I have and idea of size & build, rather than temperament, as my mind does insist on wanting an image while I'm talking. To base any advice on that image, though, would be just plain silly.
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Post by ellibell on Dec 6, 2011 10:19:54 GMT 1
Well, returning to the 'Hempfling doctrine' on this subject......he has (I suppose as a result of his many years experience) produced his list of category of horse personalities and states.....'I have to have some idea of this before I can start'........ I see his point, at its simplest for example I would say that certain breeds, much more than some others, are hard wired to pick up fear and flight. That at least would surely influence the approach to training and handling....? Firstly I am really enjoying reading this thread. Rifruffian, I can see what you are saying, but for example, I have 3 Fell ponies. The general thing with the brred is they are calm, tough and intelligent. Yes all 3 are (well they couldbe tough but they chose to be pampered lol) but within this, they are all so so so different. Lucy is herd leader, she is bolshy, a bully, kicks and bites and I would never let an unexperienced handler work with her. But she is brave with scary stuff and likes to stop and look and work it out before she runs. For all her bravery though, sh eis not as confident as you may think. Lorel is steady, and loyal. While she can be very spooky, somethings you would expect her to fly off teh handle at she ignores, then gets upset at what you would think she would ignore. He first reaction is to run, far away then look. Flynn is terrified ofhis shadow, is very reactive to anything (ok he does have sight issues but his basic personality is flighty). The other day we got new wheelie bins delivered at the gate. I had the ponies loose on the yard and access to the field. Lucy walked up to the gateway, was bothered byt hem but was on a mission to get to the grass so walked past but ready to attack them. Flynn really wanted to go past but could not bring himslef to until I walked between him and the bins. Lorel was beside herself. I had to move the bins further from the gate to give her more space to feel ok to run past. On coming in Lucy lead right up to them tipped them over inspectingthem, Flynn managed to walk past but could not cope with touching them even for a treat. Lorel, managed to touch for a treat but was ready in flight mode just on case. All the same breed but all different responses. All need handling and working with in total different ways. I just have to work with the pony that presents itself each day, not the breed.
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