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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 12:40:23 GMT 1
I agree wholeheartedly with SarahW. I actually find that when handling my horse the very best and most useful tip I ever picked up came from Kelly on the 5 day course - stop making any noise!
Ultimately verbal communication is a human concept - very rarely used by horses, and I think anthropomorphism is at it's worst when chattering to horses when training them.
Any noise you make is either a substitute for another cue (be it body language or pressure) or entirely superfluous. I've seen it in myself and many others, the situation where the human makes noises the horse doesn't understand and all that happens is the talking frustrates the human. Often the human thinks the horse is causing their frustration but I actually think it's their own chatter. When I stopped making any kind of noise I instantly found myself calmer, and considering far more carefully how I could effectively communicate with the horse. Every now and then I fall back into chatting and have to remind myself.
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Post by dalesfan on Dec 8, 2011 12:50:37 GMT 1
I secon that Michelle...one of the things I've had to work on is slowing down and staying quiet, not just verbally but emotionally as well
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Post by specialized on Dec 8, 2011 13:01:40 GMT 1
One great tool we have for helping manage problems is being aware of and maybe changing the words we use. I try hard not to use the word "problem" with clients as it feels rather out of your control, something to worry about, and generally very negative. A challenge, on the other hand, is something to rise to, a goal to achieve, and overall much more positive. Just by changing your phrase - "leading him past the other horses will be a problem" to "leading him past the other horses will be a challenge" makes the same event so much more feasible, doesn't it? Sorry I have to totally disagree with this. Definition of a challenge: A call to engage in a contest, fight, or competition: a challenge to a duel. b. An act or statement of defiance; a call to confrontation: Definition of a problem: any question or matter involving doubt, uncertainty, or difficulty. 2. a question proposed for solution or discussion. In my book they are exactly the opposite to your definitions above.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 14:48:08 GMT 1
People don'talways use the dictionary definitions, though. My personal experience is that we feel weighed down by problems, whereas if you ask "are you up for a challenge?" they'll see it as something positive for them to do.
That may be an incorrect use of the words according to the dictionary but I've not yet had a client feel a challenge, used in this context, was more daunting than a problem.
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Post by rifruffian on Dec 8, 2011 14:48:57 GMT 1
right on, specialized.
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Post by sarahbing on Dec 8, 2011 15:03:17 GMT 1
Very topical - Just involved in a school trip called 'Forest Challenge', I wonder how many participants we would have had if we had called it 'Forest problems'
In corporate worlds, we don't have problems, only challenges, as this allows us to reframe any issues or events in a more positive way. ;)Interesting that not everyone agrees ....
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Post by mandal on Dec 8, 2011 15:28:57 GMT 1
Context is important too. I wouldn't fancy something called forest problems. This meaning of challenge fits for me here. 4. A test of one's abilities or resources in a demanding but stimulating undertaking: a career that offers a challenge.Taken from this link which shows various meanings. www.thefreedictionary.com/challenge
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Post by taklishim on Dec 8, 2011 15:59:51 GMT 1
In corporate worlds, we don't have problems, only challenges, .... now how many times did I hear that at work? ;D ;D ;D We used to spend lots in time and money in working out how to deal with the challenges. In the old days we just had problems and got on and dealt with them. Up for a challenge sounds antagonistic to me when used in connection with horses. The last thing we want. I don't see what is wrong with "problem". I struggle with some of the posts. We seem to have lost our ability to get on and deal with the problem. It seems that everything must be over analysed and carefully worded. Going back to the question of horse personalities/pigeon holing. I have always found it a good starting point. They always get added to as more comes to light but I have usually found (although obviously not anyone else) that they are pretty accurate. They suggest what could be expected and are a good starting point. I don't doubt that the horse in front of you will differ because of what has happened to it but I feel it gives me an idea. I do apreciate I am in a minority of 1.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 19:22:09 GMT 1
Up for a challenge sounds antagonistic to me when used in connection with horses. The last thing we want. I don't see what is wrong with "problem". I struggle with some of the posts. We seem to have lost our ability to get on and deal with the problem. It seems that everything must be over analysed and carefully worded. I know, it might seem like that. What happens to many, though, is that they struggle for ages, sometimes on their own, sometimes with conflicting advice, with what to some may seem a straightforwards problem. To the person who is in there, usually at their wits end, often in tears, just getting on and dealing with it just is out of their reach. To say that to someone with what they feel to be an insurmountable problem is the same as saying to someone who is incapable of functioning due to clinical depression to just pick them selves up and get on with it. They'd love to! Sadly, they can't. Finding actual contructive ways of helping is the key. Giving them that something in a way that no longer feels like the insurmountable problem (their perception) that they had before can be immensely helpful. We all know in reality it's the same issue but if you feel better about tackling it, then you will have a greater chance not only of succeeding but of even bringing yourself to do it in the first place. Analysing and carefully wording for the sake of it I agree is a waste of time. Analysing and wording to help is never a waste of time. ETA - Actually, thinking about it, sometimes anaylising for its own sake can be good too, if by that we mean thinking about what we do, and how and why we do it. That's what stops us bumbling along in our owe unquestioning bubble of self belief, when maybe with a bit of reflection we might realise that we're not achieving what we think, or not achieving it the best way, after all. Winging our way back to pigeon holing again - yes, they can appear to be fairly accurate. So, though, can horoscopes in the newspaper. It's why I always think of these personality categories for horses as horoscope science. Please forgive my meandering mind!
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Post by taklishim on Dec 8, 2011 19:59:53 GMT 1
Winging our way back to pigeon holing again - yes, they can appear to be fairly accurate. So, though, can horoscopes in the newspaper. It's why I always think of these personality categories for horses as horoscope science. that was very funny. Made me laugh ;D ;D ;D ;D I think we just beg to differ. I find personality categories very useful and accurate. (They are of course based on actually looking at the animal not from reading about it or speaking to someone on the phone etc. ) They provide a starting point, suggest what the horse should be like. (to me) Then the other pieces of the jig saw start to fit in as to what it is actually like and why.
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Post by specialized on Dec 8, 2011 21:23:56 GMT 1
In my philosiphy a problem is there to be solved and a challenge is something to be faced, I would prefer to solve a problem with a horse than face it as a challenge.
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Post by specialized on Dec 8, 2011 21:29:05 GMT 1
Going back to the question of horse personalities/pigeon holing. I have always found it a good starting point. They always get added to as more comes to light but I have usually found (although obviously not anyone else) that they are pretty accurate. They suggest what could be expected and are a good starting point. I don't doubt that the horse in front of you will differ because of what has happened to it but I feel it gives me an idea. I do apreciate I am in a minority of 1. Don't you believe it
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Post by specialized on Dec 8, 2011 21:36:03 GMT 1
I agree wholeheartedly with SarahW. I actually find that when handling my horse the very best and most useful tip I ever picked up came from Kelly on the 5 day course - stop making any noise! Ultimately verbal communication is a human concept - very rarely used by horses, and I think anthropomorphism is at it's worst when chattering to horses when training them. Any noise you make is either a substitute for another cue (be it body language or pressure) or entirely superfluous. I've seen it in myself and many others, the situation where the human makes noises the horse doesn't understand and all that happens is the talking frustrates the human. Often the human thinks the horse is causing their frustration but I actually think it's their own chatter. When I stopped making any kind of noise I instantly found myself calmer, and considering far more carefully how I could effectively communicate with the horse. Every now and then I fall back into chatting and have to remind myself. But it is not what you are saying, it is all down to tone and innotation - we know they don't understand words but talking can be calming, motivating and supportive of body language and physical signals. What about in ridden work? I hate it when people do not talk to their hoses when riding, it is a vital extra tool when faced with awkward situations or just a bit of praise when things are going right.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 21:36:24 GMT 1
Ok, then, I've made the case against pigeonhole personality profiles - make the case for them. Why are they any better than starting with a bit of horse psychology and an open mind? What method do you use and why? What made you want to look at it in the first place? etc.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, I promise. I'm happy to learn from anyone who's got something to teach.
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Post by specialized on Dec 8, 2011 21:48:08 GMT 1
I wouldn't try to assess the personality of a horse as a starting point, it is something that you learn about as part of the relationship as the partnership builds. I couldn't go up to a strange horse and tell you it's personality, but I know the personalities of all our own horses and how it affects the way they think and the way they work.
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