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Post by wabuska on Jul 21, 2010 16:26:09 GMT 1
Really enjoying this thread. I think we should all open our ears to trainers and riders at Heathers level as there is a lot of pomposity and shallow understanding in classical training. I know some pretty awful riders here in Ireland who can go to clinics and take lessons, and talk this stuff up a storm and flat can't ride! Drives me mad (and I'm no classic rider). We're lucky to have you Heather. Delighted the whole hacking/schooling/on the bit thing is here.... fascinating.
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Post by lisap on Jul 21, 2010 16:58:03 GMT 1
;)Having run a trekking centre in Cornwall in my youth, competed in several disciplines, and now proudly calling myself a Happy Hacker, I will still work on a horse to train him/her to carry themselves effectively with a rider on their backs. The fact is that the vast majority of pleasure horses in the UK today are just not that educated. They lead happy enough lives with their owners, and most of them stay reasonably sound as they ride in straight lines and are not asked to do anything very demanding most of the time. However, once these horses are asked to do more demanding work, this lack of education will start to find them out unless they are trained and prepared accordingly. But, as ever, it is horses for courses. An endurance horse will look like a marathon runner, hard, wiry and fit. A dressage horse will look like a cross between a body builder and a ballerina, strong, well muscled, but gymnastic. A showjumper will be like a human long jumper, powerful hindquarters and the ability to lift their forehands easily etc etc. The horses' balance in every case will be slightly different according to the work required of them, and that will result in a different physique. Because I like my horses to be able to jump a bit, ride out happily for up to 20 miles at all three paces, enjoy a day's hunting or a fun ride, be responsive to my aids and light in my hand at all times, I will spend time and effort in educating my horse to balance himself and carry himself as effectively as it is possible for him with his or her particular conformation. Holsbols, it is likely that you are a fairly balanced rider, who is consistent in her aids and as a result your horses build their confidence in carrying themselves without you having to think about it too much. I am envious of you!
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 17:05:45 GMT 1
Holsbols, it is likely that you are a fairly balanced rider, who is consistent in her aids and as a result your horses build their confidence in carrying themselves without you having to think about it too much. I am envious of you! LOL thank you very much!! Be nice to think that is true... ;D Hell, I'll just believe it til someone tells me otherwise heehee!! You literally have said everything i feel lisap! which is why if i decide to do more with my horses, like jumping for example, i WILL get the lessons in order to enable me to help my horse! I like your analogies with people and their disciplines! really helped MTA my mum is going to come on now and completely shoot me down lol!! leave my bubble alone mother!!
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 21, 2010 19:41:13 GMT 1
At what point should people be seeking out correcting the position of a horse? walk only doesnt matter, what about the occasional trot and canter? what about if someone did one hunt a year? Well you see, I think walk DOES matter, at least for this particular happy hacker! When I bought my pony as a 5 yr old, dressage and showing were the furthest things from my mind, I just wanted to amble about the countryside, and throw in the odd gallop and maybe a modest jump here and there, but mostly walk, so that's what we did for a couple of years. I won't bore people with why we ended up barefoot (it wasn't out of free choice), but once working in hoof boots, I found that he was wearing through the soles in a couple of months, and sheer economics meant that I had to find the reason and a solution or stop riding him. Slowly it dawned on me that it was my poor riding that was allowing him to shuffle along on his forehand, because he had never really learned anything else, and my young pony was working like a tired old horse. It's a good point you raise about the trekking ponies. I wish someone knew the answer! I'm just an enthusiast, I don't really understand the technicalities of riding 'correctly', but I know for certain that when I ride my pony 'on the bit', and especially when he 'submits' (which I find a strange term), it is easier for us both, and that's got to be better, hasn't it? It's almost like he sighs with relief and says 'oh I get it, this thing you keep trying to get me to do and that I'm resisting, is actually less work!' Because he is working from behind, his forehand is lighter, so a natural consequence of this is that he will wear through his soles less - at least, that's the assumption I'm making - I hope it turns out to be right! I confess, I do care about the outline now, because it looks pretty and we still don't really get it that often, and I know that's not a good enough reason, and I have been guilty of trying to force it with the reins , but having read all the interesting posts on this thread, I will try to put that out of my mind. My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that, is that it really is in my pony's best interests to learn how to ride 'correctly'. HolsBols, it sounds like you are very lucky, and you (and your horse?) have a natural flair for this, but me and my pone need to work at it!
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 19:58:02 GMT 1
LOL I really dont think i have a natural flair for it... im just lucky enough that Charmer is well schooled and happened to offer what i didnt know i was asking for which made me feel really great and Hols is so vocal abut everything that i had to adapt my riding to a way to suit her else she wouldnt mve properly at all lol!! I have no idea if she is moving in an outline BUT i do know that she has built up muscles in all the right places and shes a happy girl, oh and the back lady sees her every 6 months and her back is doing good thatll all suit me!!
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Post by antares on Jul 21, 2010 20:19:25 GMT 1
Correct me if im wrong antares but it sounds like your point was because they are walking and not doing physically demading work then the position wont matter so much. So where does the line get drawn?? At what point should people be seeking out correcting the position of a horse? walk only doesnt matter, what about the occasional trot and canter? Actually you got me slightly wrong - I was really trying to put a partial theory forwards as to why some of the trekking centre ponies can be working very late into their lives where some dressage horses/showjumpers etc may retire earlier. My retired ex point to pointer will have never worked in an outline in his racing days and it certainly shows now as a 20 year old, his withers became very pronounced at 16 and he started to get a swayed back, in fact he was completely retired at 16 because of this because it became impossible to find a saddle to fit. He is obviously an extreme case but he is testament that horses that are worked hard without being worked correctly will not last as ridden horses, had he just been out hacking and not working hard from the age of 4 - 12 OR he had been worked correctly during that time then he may still be able to be ridden now I'm another one who thinks walk is important - it's also the hardest pace to get it right!!!
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 21:56:13 GMT 1
French Master Etienne Beudant said 'The walk is the mother of all gaits'- antares, so you are in good company! I agree too!
Heather
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 22, 2010 8:37:53 GMT 1
Donnalex suggested a good exercise whilst hacking up hills to encourage your horse to stretch down and use his bum more. Can anyone else suggest helpful exercises whilst out hacking to make sure we are encouraging our horses to strengthen their backs in the right way? I hack about 5 times a week, so that's a lot of exercise I could be cashing in on to improve my pony's way of working, or alternatively, developing the wrong muscles by riding badly. When I'm on my own, I do lots and lots of sharp transitions to encourage him to engage his rear end. Are their other things I could be doing?
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 22, 2010 8:52:50 GMT 1
Very good question tomrabbit
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2010 10:29:15 GMT 1
Please forgive my ignorance - but if you have a young horse who you want to encourage off the forehand, then surely long and low work is going to do the opposite? MTA: I don't mean the talk about hill work, I understand that will help, but what about long and low in the school on the flat? I recently had a saddle fitting with a rather more advance rider than myself and in one saddle my horse really strode out more, and as I let him have a slightly longer rein to stretch forward, she pointed out that this was putting him on the forehand whereas riding along normally he was much better balanced. Any thoughts?
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2010 10:49:10 GMT 1
I agree, Michelle, riding long and low on a horse that is naturally on the forehand, makes it worse! These horses need to be ridden more 'up' from the start! There is no one recipe for training that suits every single horse, and this is a message I have much difficulty in getting across at times!
Heather
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 22, 2010 10:53:02 GMT 1
Im glad i started this thread, its really interesting!! From looking at the pictures i seem to ride my horse "long and low", which by someones explanation stretches and relaxes the topline muscles... Am i right in thinking that this is defferent to "collection"? Although my understanding is that in collection the topline is also relaxed... The fact that both ways result in the topline being relaxed, is one method better than the other? should we, as riders, always attempt at a bit of both? or should we encourage the relaxation of the top line of any horse we ride regardless of the method above we use? does that make sense? I ask because a few things people have said has rung a few bells with me... Hols works much better long and low, walk trot canter is done with little contact and generally a free head and she naturally moves herself in that position. Charmer, on the other hand, when i ride him, when we've been working hard (ie what i like to call power trots) he has offered the near vertical head without any prompting and is obviously working in the correct way for him. Obviously i do let him stretch it out also... Obviously its me riding, so my knowledge on the subject is the same with both horses and like i said previously i seem to ride on instinct... should i be encouraging hols to become more collected and charmer to become mor elong and low... or am i achieving the same results if the overall aim is to relax the topline (which sounds fundamentally important!!) Ive reposted my above question cuz it wasnt answered and seems relevant with the long and low question... So if long and low puts a horse on the forehand... why do we encourage it?
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2010 12:48:57 GMT 1
As I mentioned in a previous post,
a) as a remedial exercise it's a useful way of encouraging the topline muscles to relax and lengthen (which is something you might need to do either at the very beginning of training or to rectify problems later on). It also encourages the horse to engage his hind end further under the mass in order to balance himself but there will not be any extra weight on the hind end (because it's on the front end ;D)
b) as a relaxation break between bouts of harder training
There is very little in training horses that is absolutely a good idea or a bad idea. They almost always have pros and cons. The skill (which could also be called experience) lies in choosing to do something that's useful at a moment in time and also knowing when it is about to become counter productive and so stop doing that (and maybe even do some of the opposite!). Balance is the key, in as many different senses of the word as you can think of...
This is also the value in reading the old literature. There is virtually nothing new in the horse world these days. It has all been done before. Reading the thoughts and experiences of those who have already done it 'that way' can save a lot of 'figuring out from first principles'. First hand personal experience is important too but in the end all real progress comes from standing on the shoulders of others.
Derek
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 22, 2010 12:53:10 GMT 1
I agree, Michelle, riding long and low on a horse that is naturally on the forehand, makes it worse! These horses need to be ridden more 'up' from the start! There is no one recipe for training that suits every single horse, and this is a message I have much difficulty in getting across at times! Heather So how do you ride such a horse more 'up'? Examples please!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 22, 2010 13:15:05 GMT 1
Yes. Long and low is more or less the exact opposite of collection. The base of support (distance between front and hind hooves) is elongated in the former and shortened in the latter. The horse's weight is also balanced toward the front in the former and towards the rear in the latter. The former posture is very stable and not very maneuverable while the latter is very unstable and so very maneuverable.
The top line should always be relaxed (or to be a little more precise, only work in a rhythmical, pulsating fashion and not be permanently contracted). That is one of the big challenges of training and riding. The very act of putting tack on a horse tends to make the topline muscles contract. When you sit on the horse's back that also has the effect of making the topline tense. It's partly a physical question and partly psychological (horses are naturally worried by things jumping on their backs). A relaxed topline is not the same as a droopy or hyper flexible back. The muscles which support the back and carry the rider's weight (which in a well trained and ridden horse are NOT the topline muscles) actually reduce the amount of movement in the spine the more energy there is in the gait too, so it's quite a complicated subject.
Whether or not you want collection is a matter of choice depending on what you want your horse to do.
Derek
[mta] It's very important to understand that a horse doesn't necessarily have contracted or relaxed topline muscles just because his head is high or low. He can have a low neck and still be contracted just as he can have a high neck and be relaxed.
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