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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 9:07:54 GMT 1
What are the benefits of riding like this? Im simply a happy hacker, if i ever did do schooling it would just be some games with friends... My riding style is on where i am on the buckle, i allow the horses head to be where the horse feels comfortable which is generally where they would hold their head if the were walking without a rider when they are happy and calm in the field. I use my reins like a gear stick lol i hold with one hand and move my hands to aid my position change when i want to turn etc but never really touching the horses mouth (my horses do have bits). Legs i also hardly use any contact, but position my legs appropriately and touch the horses skin if its appropriate. Moving forward is with my bum and voice aids unless the horse needs a bit more. I can honestly say i dont have many issues when riding when i use this style and the majority of horses have responded well with it. Ive never been taught to ride like this-its natural to me, and i cant see myself ever changing my style but i really want to understand why making the horse move from behind and bringing a horse down on the bit is important?? Obviously its needed to pass dressage tests, and a horses power should come from behind for jumping but wouldnt a horse learn to do this naturally?? Im honestly very curious about this, and really would like to hear every side to the arguement, why people ride the way they do etc etc. Particularly if the way i ride could potentially hurt or hinder my horse when im riding!! Please no arguements or telling anyone their riding style is wrong or cruel!! Everyone wants to do the best by their hroses and everyone has been taught differently, i just want to understand the reasons why we do certain things and ride in certain ways and the benefits of doing so! NB) if i were to do more than happy hacking i would seriously consider having lessons
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 20, 2010 9:31:37 GMT 1
I know where you're coming from with this HolsBols, as I too am a happy hacker 90% of the time, and there's nothing I like better than daydreaming along with my pony on the buckle... I think the benefit from riding 'in an outline' only comes if the horse is not only in an outline but also powering from behind, because it is possible to artifically get the outline without the power. My highland pony is naturally very much on the forehand. I have a big struggle to get him working from behind, and then into an outline, but I'm working hard to get there! I don't really care if I never win a dressage competition, but the thing is, as long as he is so heavy on his forehand, he is more likely to trip and stumble, and more significantly for me, he is wearing through the soles on his hoof boots at an incredible rate because he is dragging himself around, and I know that if I can get him working properly it will prolong not only his boot life, but also his working life, which is a definite plus point. On those occasions (usually in a lesson) when I really get him off his forehand and powering from his substantial highland rear end, he lightens dramatically, and riding becomes much less effort for me, and in fact for him, because I notice that he sweats up much less when we have been working this way. On occasions when it just isn't going right, it's like riding a reluctant seaside donkey, hard work for both of us, and not very pleasurable. I know the very knowledgeable peeps on this forum will come up with lots of excellent technical explanations for this, but that's my own happy hacker take on things! For me personally, we've almost cracked the powering from behind, and the outline is following, although it's still hard work!
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 9:42:31 GMT 1
Thanks tomrabbit, i look forward to peoples technical knowledge to add onto it though i like hearing it from a fellow happy hacker I suppose my biggest question (more for the technical peops!) is WHY! if the horses natural motion is on the forehand then why do we need to change it??? My horse was naturally on the forehand, and then the more we relaxed together she slowly progressed onto powering more from behind but it was all that was natural to her! So that shows me that it is better for them to be moving from behind so maybe teaching then this motion will hurry the process along? like teaching a child to run with there knees higher to run faster?? Thinking out loud here!!
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Post by donnalex on Jul 20, 2010 10:11:29 GMT 1
The reasons behind the hallowed outline being classed as correct are that it is the best way for the horse to carry the rider economically and without causing damage to his skeleton and muscles. Years ago good riders wrte about what was correct, taking into account the limitations of the horse. I think if you looked into it you could get interested in classical equitation rather than schooling 'in an outline' as you put it, because classical riding is very considerate to the horse both in mind and body which sounds to me like where you would like to be. 'In an outline' is very open to interpretation as it could be a fixed outline, a hollow outline or a perfect outline so it is best to describe what is correct as 'on the bit'. Allowing your horse to go along in the fashion you do is very nice and free and easy but over time you could be doing him long term damage. Horses did not evolve to have a rider and so we need to educate them into carrying us in the best way possible so we dont injure him. If we allow him to go along stretched out without using his muscles correctly he could easily end up hollow due to muscle fatigue, once he is hollow he is more difficult to sit easily to and so ends up morse tense and so it ends up a bit like catch 22. In order to not wreck his front legs and back he needs to take much more of the weight (rider added) on the back end and lift his front end slightly. Once that is established his head will then be carried in the most cmfortable position for him. You can often tell horses that do not work through properly just standing still with no tack on as they often have a big belly, hollow back, weak quarters and often too much muscle on the underside of the neck. In some cases the owner then 'feeds up' the horse to improve its overall condition with 'Top Line Cubes'. Sometimes a layer of fat can mask it a bit and they get away with it thinking that they are on the right track. Nooooo! Correct muscle tone comes truly from correct work.
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Post by Lady Equine on Jul 20, 2010 10:50:03 GMT 1
Hi HB
When I bought April she was on the forehand and rushy, every transition was done at warp speed, she never powered from behind but dragged with her front end, head in the air any pressure on the bit/ reins in any form she would coil up and sometimes rear.
Some of this were due to Her physical issues, her back and pelvis were out and she was diagnosed with navi and some of this was due to how she had been ridden previously, which had put her back out and also given her a fear of the bit. During her rehab, we took her back to basics on the long lines and dually, we encouraged her to move from behind to increase her back muscle which in turn supports her sacroiliac, she has always had big shoulders and pecs, but no butt or back muscle. We did this for 4 months and (touch wood) her back has been fine for the past year or so, she is happier in an outline than she was before and I can feel when she is using the correct muscles, she is up underneath me, to when she is finidng something difficult and takes the easy option of reverting to dragging and hollowing.
As Donnalex said about when they stand up square you can see how the body has worked thru the muscle build and as April has big pecs it makes her look over at the front and she has a beautiful botom line.
I have classical riding lessons and understand that working in an outline along with other ridden and lunge excersises is to encourage the horse to use the correct muscles which in time increases the horses core strength and flexibility and builds the correct muscles and reduces the chance of injury.
LE
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 11:04:31 GMT 1
Hi HB When I bought April she was on the forehand and rushy, every transition was done at warp speed, she never powered from behind but dragged with her front end, head in the air any pressure on the bit and she would coil up and sometimes rear. Some of this were due to Her physical issues, her back and pelvis were out and she was diagnosed with navi and some of this was due to how she had been ridden previously, which had put her back out and also given her a fear of the bit. This is just like hols, she was very stressy, rushy, reared if too much pressure put on her and back lady came out and said her back is out of line and no end of problems... Took a while but at the 3rd or 4th visit the back lady couldnt charge me because she said the way id ridden had corrected her alignment and there was no work needed. now every time she comes out its a slight adjustment to the pelvis but nothing major. She also had a lovely muscly bum now and you can feel her power being behind... but if thats something ive taught her then its been done naturally by feeling how shes moves if that makes sense... Can someone explain the most effective method of encouraging a horse from powering from behind, and if it can be done without any pressure from the mouth. I can see the powering from behind and being needed for holding a rider... so what about being on the bit? what are the advantages of this?
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Post by Lady Equine on Jul 20, 2010 11:21:43 GMT 1
I would recommend long lining to start, over poles out on the road in the school, up hill down hill in circles straight lines, figure of eights - This is how I conditioned April's topline of muscle.
With riding, i would recommend an instructor. From the ground an instractor will look at your postion, seat legs hands etc. My instructor asseses the horse's way of going and the muscles they use to ascertain if corrections are needed. If the horse is being encouraged correctly and is physically able it will take a contact and offer an out line naturally. The request comes from within your riding ( seat - leg aids - hands - balance) If you ask these questions correctly then the horse will work correctly and infact, I know when I've got it wrong as this is when she becomes confused so reverts back to how she knows.
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Post by Dragonmaster on Jul 20, 2010 11:31:02 GMT 1
Interesting thread. I think I ride the way you do, Hols, and I too am a happy hacker. The difference is that I spent years riding in riding schools and doing NVQ level 2 before I started riding friends horses and later got my own. So I have had the 'education' and from that developed a free riding style. I have to add Sally Swift's Centered Riding was a major influence as well. I don't think riding on a loose contact = not riding properly. If - and it is a big if - you are riding in a balanced manner and using your back and seat. Being correct and balanced is not achieved by hauling in the head with the reins, although some people seem to think it is. It is quite possible for a horse to learn how to be balanced and carry a rider efficiently by correct riding but not have a strong contact.
You say your horse does not drag on the forehand, neither do mine. You probably don't sit like a sack of spuds, either. ;D
Think about when horses were used in battle, the rider was too busy wielding a sword, spear or bow to keep rein contact, the horses had to learn balance, self carriage and to execute manoevers (sp?) signaled by the rider's leg, weight and balance.
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Post by sandy on Jul 20, 2010 11:38:57 GMT 1
Your post is so relevant to me at this particular time. I used to ride my sec D mare nearly every day round the fields or hack out on the road. I usually pootled along holding the reins on the buckle and all seemed well. I rarely schooled because I thought she hated it but in hindsight I realise it was my riding that held us back in that department. Poppy died and so I bought Ari who is as yet unbacked. I really want to give Ari every chance in the world and realised I needed some lessons before I start riding him. I had always been interested in RWYM and got in touch with Karin at Overdale Equestrian. I've had four lessons and I cannot tell you the difference in my riding. Yesterday, I managed long and low and then for a few seconds I felt the horse soften and round under me - if I'm describing it properly! It was amazing - the horse moved so beautifully and what a contrast to when I first started my lessons, when due to my inability he had short choppy strides and a hollow back.
Donnalex puts it into words far more eloquently than I can but this is the way forward for me. Having your body balanced; using your muscles to the benefit of both yourself and the horse which together with the correct position of hands, legs, thighs, knees and not forgetting to breathe etc allows the horse to move freely and gracefully underneath you.
I am strongly opposed to shoving gadgets and tack on a horse to make it perform in an outline but to be able to give the horse the freedom to move correctly whilst carrying a person is amazing and rewarding and also much, much kinder for the horse.
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Post by antares on Jul 20, 2010 12:48:41 GMT 1
I can see the powering from behind and being needed for holding a rider... so what about being on the bit? what are the advantages of this? Maybe you could explain to us what you think 'on the bit' is?? To me it is about the whole shape of the horse and it's way of going i.e. coming through from the quarters and lifting the whole torso including belly, ribs and back - if done correctly this should mean that the horses neck arches and the head comes in naturally to balance the horse - the head being vertical is the final piece in the jigsaw and comes from the horses natural neck shape when the quarters/back/ribcage etc are in the correct shape. It seems to me that you think 'on the bit' means to pull the horses head in which is incorrect. (sorry if I have that wrong, that's just the way I interpreted what you were saying) You cannot really just 'try it out' on your horse to see what it feels like, it takes time to build up the muscles and the horses way of going and a lot of patience and hard work. You could start though by doing half halts in trot down the long side of a school (don't need pressure on the mouth there as you will be using your seat & leg aids as you would to slow down) and then pushing the horse forward, this helps to teach him to sit back on his quarters and push off from his quarters. What it won't do is automatically get him 'on the bit' but you should see him offering to stretch his back and neck after a few times of trying. You can slowly build this up over time and then begin to add in some lateral movements - again this will show him how to use his back end well and he should begin to lift his rib cage and back. A good thing the horses point of view is, being 'on the bit' makes him stronger accross his back and therefore carrying us humans is much easier for him. From a riders point of view it gives us a much nicer and more comfortable ride making it easier for us to balance which in turn makes it easier for the horse to carry us.
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Post by welly on Jul 20, 2010 12:55:48 GMT 1
The idea that dressage performed correctly is physiotherapy for the horse, to develop and strengthen the muscles required to carry a rider with ease and for many years.
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Post by welly on Jul 20, 2010 12:58:49 GMT 1
Meant to add that a horse truly collected should be on a light rein. Look at pictures of Henry Wynmallen for instance.
We get muddled up with dressage for competition and dressage for training. The competition dressage has been quite a lot about power and gaits, but I suspect that the top horses do go on a light rein, but not a dropping rein.
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Post by antares on Jul 20, 2010 13:09:12 GMT 1
I suppose my biggest question (more for the technical peops!) is WHY! if the horses natural motion is on the forehand then why do we need to change it??? well that's an easy one - they weren't designed to carry us were they? lol If we want to ride then we should help them to build the muscles to carry us effectively and efficiently. There's not much natural about what we do with horses, we have domesticated them to be not afraid of us & we're predators, we groom them, have their feet trimmed, ride them, keep them in fields where they are not free to roam as much and far as they like, water them from buckets & troughs, give them injections etc etc etc - even if we do all of these things as naturally as we possibly can, it is still not really natural!
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Post by mags on Jul 20, 2010 13:22:33 GMT 1
I'm a 90% happy hacker myself. I don't much like schooling in a school, so I try to incorporate a bit of schooling into every hack. My horse is an expert at "long and dragging his toes", if I just leave him to bumble along on the buckle. If he does, I ask him to step through using my legs and seat. I can ride him on the buckle, and just by using legs and seat, he will lift up in front, shorten and step under more actively. No hands necessary, though I will shorten my rein until I have a light contact. I ride a lot of transitions (particularly when I'm out alone and not bothering anyone). I ask for, and expect, a prompt response, which he can only give me if he's balanced and somewhat "together". I do lateral work at walk. Trotting in deep grass is a great alternative to trotting over poles and really gets him powering from behind, lifting his back and stretching into contact. We have quite a few "dips" in our bridle paths, and powerwalking uphill is also a great exercise. Overall, I ride with very light contact. I never use my hands to try and position his head in a particular outline. Frankly, I couldn't care less what he looks like. I certainly don't ride the whole hack "in an outline". I just try to keep him light and responsive and coming from behind, and slowly but surely, I'm getting stretches in really nice form more frequently. And then there are the days when all I want is sit on my horse and chat with my friends, or enjoy the forest....
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Post by drumduan on Jul 20, 2010 13:22:49 GMT 1
Unfortunately, as Dragonmaster pointed out, too many people seem to be under the impression that you can get a horse 'on the bit' and 'working in a nice outline' by just hauling in on the reins. As Donnalex says, it's the other way about.
Hauling in his head until his face is way behind the vertical will put an awful bend in his neck (as I so often see in adverts for horses), but it won't get that shift of weight onto his haunches. If, instead, you get his hindquarters more underneath him, and get him to shift more weight onto them, then the horse will automatically arch his neck more to draw his head in.
As others have said, it takes time, patience and work to achieve this, as the horse can only shift weight onto his haunches when he's developed the necessary muscle to carry it - and this is one of the purposes of the various dressage exercises. It's also one of the reasons for the classical riding position - which puts your body in such a position that you can give the horse very clear leg aids in order to encourage the hind legs to reach further forwards underneath him. When he starts doing this, he will be stretching and strengthening those muscles in his loins, and lifting his back.
I've only done that with two horses, in all of my riding, and am only now really learning how to get it right, mainly by working on getting my pelvis in the right position, and getting it to swing freely with the horse. But, I promise you, as Sandy says, when you do get yourself in the right position (which makes it easy for the horse), and give the aids in the right way, the difference in the way they move and feel is astonishing - and well worth the effort!
Another benefit is when going out for a 'happy hack'. As Donnalex says, once you've helped the horse to build up that strength and flexibility in his loins, he can carry himself more comfortably, with less effort, and less likelihood of stumbling or losing his balance than if that part of his body was weak or unsupple.
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