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Post by mags on Jul 21, 2010 9:26:38 GMT 1
Regarding Heathers pictures: Honestly, not an expert here - wish I could ride like that. But from what I've read, wouldn't you want to have the nose more "out" (i.e. at least on the vertical, if not in front) for the "long and low" picture of Anja Beran? I realize this is a snap shot and probably doesn't reflect all that's going on, but since we're talking about "ideal examples" ... On the collected picture of the Arab: reading books by Gerd Heuschmann and Philippe Karl, I have learned to look for parallel lines between the lower part of the hind leg and the upper part of the front leg in piaffe (or any trot, really). In this picture, it seems that the hind leg is left behind a bit. Is that being nit-picky? Or did I get that wrong? I'm only asking to clarify what the absolute ideal picture should look like.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2010 9:29:13 GMT 1
I've been readig this with great interest as I've always sort of sat on the fence but now I am bringing on my young horse I need to make my mind up about how I am going to train him! I have had so many instructors tell me to 'ask' for an outline by fiddling with the reins then putting my leg on and it's never sat right with me, it always felt like a fight and not enjoyable for me or the horse - which is why I've never really been a fan of working them in an outline. Then I had a lessonw ith a Mary Wanless instructor - she had me walking on the buckle, sorting my position out and as soon as she said I was doing it right, the horse lifted his back, each time i fell out of position his back dropped, it was like an on/off switch and so obvious! Even with my young horse who has done very little indeed, I have had him go into a near perfect outline just by me sorting myself out - he didn't hold it long because he's not able to but it really showed me the importance of sorting myself out before expecting the horse to! Of course other things impact too - I thought he was going quite nicely in my torsion but since swapping to a balance saddle I have had several people comment on what a good quality walk and trot he is giving me for one so green
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Post by Rosie J on Jul 21, 2010 9:40:30 GMT 1
I have had this internal debate with myself for a while. Many top dressage horses have problems in their hocks, and although it would be lovely to assume that all dressage-type work was for the physical comfort of the horse, I think it is unrealistic to assume that is always the case, the evidence is in the lengths that people will go to in order to get that perfect outline. And has anyone ever scientifically studied the riding lifespan of horses who school regularly compared to those who hack? I certainly know more old happy hackers than old dressage horses, and I think way more damage can be done to the horses back, neck, poll and mouth through schooling than through leaving entirely alone. Firstly, as others have said, the head position is the sypmtom of good work not the aim of it, its more like you notice you have a good head position along with other things when you are getting it right. But why bother at all?... Remedial horses, that nap, rear, evade the bit, buck, jog, or shy are so so so much easier to rehabilitate once you are able to work them on the bit, not behind the vertical or anything, that would be counterproductive, but once thier jaw is really relaxed, and their poll is really relaced and open, and their neck is soft and maleable, then their shoulders are not tense and their spine is swinging and all is well, and you can teach lateral aids and various rein aids that can really help you to keep them soft during what could become a difficult situationl. Schooling prevents a simply pull/kick/wait attitude to problem-horse riding and gives you and the horse a more intricate and colourful range of communication tools about how and where to place each foot should you need it. During the schooling process, you have also really worked on your horse knowing your leadership and being happy working with that, and you become able to feel any tension in the horses body and iron it out with movements and exercises. Control of speed and direction, this is a bit of a catch 22, but if you are going to want to ride in circles, those circles aint gonna be circular and feel supple without some schooling. If you are only ever going to hack, this doesn't really apply, but as I am often preparing horses for other riders, its important they feel comfortable to ride in the school. Head position isnt really important for this, but often comes at the same time. Cosmetics and aesthetics - this brings me on to my third and controversial point, people like horses to go in a round shape, and will use all sorts of confusing and painful tactics to get them there. I can use a range of movements and exercises to teach horses to carry themselves 'nicely' using behavioural principles like pressure and release and building up muscle tone slowly. I know that if I do this with the young horses I bring on, then they are set up for riding life and will hopefully avoid the draw rein and spur techniques. So I suppose I have come to terms with the fact that since I cant know what it feels like to be a horse, I dont know if it really is best for them to be round. But, even if it is purely just something people want, lets not fool ourselves into thinking riding them at all is natural or best for them, and if I can create this kndly and without force, I dont see how it is any worse then teaching them to jump. Most schooling comes from military riding, and the aim is to have a horse who can change speed and direction incredibly quickly smoothly and comfortably, and look powerful. If you dont need those things in your riding life, then maybe outlines arent for you, Editted to add: ITs not really WHY we are doing it, so much as HOW we are doing it, that is important to the ethics of horsemanship. It may or may not be better for the horse, but it is what people want because it feels so good and looks good to our modern tastes to see a horse carry himself in a balanced way in the arena.
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 9:55:43 GMT 1
Hi Mags,
No, it doesnt worry me if a young horse is slightly btv. Many, many Iberians will go that way on the lunge before even being backed, and with no side reins. It is due to weakness behind and to try to prevent this at that stage, can cause more problems than it will solve! Even with the warmbloods, they will often have a tendency to come btv early in their career. When worked correctly, this will normally resolve itself once the hind quarters are stronger and taking more weight.
The Arab in that pic is not fully trained- the piaffe was in the early stages and therefore not yet perfect- he is slightly triangulating, but that would also resolve with strength and time.
I think that people have become too paranoid about btv. If you go back through history, the early Baroque horses were often depicted as being btv, on slack reins yes, and the engravings were highly stylised too, so we shall never know exactly how they rode, but the shape of the horses was that of the Iberian breeds, short backed and naturally round.
Conversely, if you then go to the 1800s, you will start to see a different type of horse, much more TB or Anglo in type, rectangular and angular in shape, long, narrower neck, making it very easy for this stamp of horse to remain at or slightly in front of the vertical, with the poll the highest point.
Many stallions or horses with high crests, could not remain 'through' from behind if the poll was the highest point. The neck vertebrae lie halfway down, not at the top, so if you sliced off the crest, the poll would still be the highest point, provided that the face was not behind the vertical.
So ideally, all horses should eventually work at or slightly in front of the vertical, but this will depend largely on their stage of schooling and conformation/strength.
Although I have been at the forefront of the anti rollkur campaign, I am concerned that people are getting consumed by this 'horse must be in front of the vertical' idea, and trying to fit all shapes and sizes into one 'box'.
I am very pedantic about the way in which a rider sits and absorbs the horses movement, but there are several roads to Rome in training the horse, both German and French schools. I have trained in both, but use tools from both schools depending on the horse I am working with.
Heather
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Post by jennyb on Jul 21, 2010 10:18:05 GMT 1
Mags - I am not sure that a horse will maintain those equal lines through forearm and hind cannon in piaffe. Piaffe is the ultimate in collection, and the horse must sit well behind and also still elevate the forelegs. That Arab is doing a pretty fine job! As Heather says, his weight bearing foreleg is slightly behind the vertical, but that's really common when they are learning piaffe and not yet strong enough behind. But in gaits with a forward motion, yes, you are right to look for those angles. RosieJ - you only need to look at the Spanish Riding School to see horses who just school for most of the year, yet remain sound and happy working well into their twenties. Just last September, I had the priveledge to watch the wonderful Conversano Dagmar perform on the long reins again, he is well into his twenties and still performs regularly at the very highest level. Therefore we can conclude that schooling, done well and adhering to classical principles, is not harmful to the horse.
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 10:23:23 GMT 1
Indeed, quite the contrary Jenny, schooling strengthens the back and allows the horse to carry the rider with the least difficulty, that is, as long as the rider is also making life as easy as possible by sitting correctly and synchronising with the horse.
An old horse who has been worked correctly all his life, will not show the sagging back so typical of many riding horses, and I think this is proof that correct riding and schooling makes life not only easier for the horse, but prolongs his working life too.
Heather
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2010 12:24:23 GMT 1
An old horse who has been worked correctly all his life, will not show the sagging back so typical of many riding horses, and I think this is proof that correct riding and schooling makes life not only easier for the horse, but prolongs his working life too. Heather I think the problem is that level of correctness isn't there for most horses. Sadly, my experience of horses I know in person is that most who compete at anything 'harder' than prelim dressage and 2ft6 SJ rarely remain fit to ride beyond 18 and are often PTS before 25, whereas the happy hackers seem to endure less lameness and box rest, and live longer
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 12:35:43 GMT 1
This is much more likely due to incorrect schooling, Michelle, use of draw reins etc. My trainer, Luis Valenca has horses working well into their late twenties, completely sound and not remotely looking their age.
Heather
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 13:28:23 GMT 1
This is much more likely due to incorrect schooling, Michelle, use of draw reins etc. My trainer, Luis Valenca has horses working well into their late twenties, completely sound and not remotely looking their age. Heather Which i think is great, but that is down to an owner who knows how to train her horses properly... in real terms i wonder how many people who compete highly at dressage are there through taking the time and patience to teach their horses properly in comparison to using gadget upon gadget to create the appearance of a horse working correctly. Yes there are just as many happy hackers who use gadgets but id like to think that they wouldnt be quite so harsh as someone who was competing at a high level. My friends trekking centre is basically a hacking centre for a whole spectrum of abilities and the horses also get to play at skill at arms. You cant teach someone who is paying to ride for one day round the welsh mountains that they should aim for this this and this but they are told to use fairly light/ no reins and only use a neck strap if theyve never ridden a horse! There a 20 year old is still classed as a baby! the majority of ridden horses there are in late twenties and thirties and there and a few that are forty and ive even met a couple who are in their 50s!!!!!!! altho the old men arent being ridden anymore!! perhaps its not the way we ride them which will aid in giving them a long life, but the life we give them. These trekking horses work hard everyday, but never in an outline and who knows if its from behind!! ive seen these horses in the flesh, yes they are thin from working hard (ive seen how much they eat, trust me they are well looked after!!) but they dont all have bowed backs... could this possibly be evidence that horses dont necessarily need to take on a certain shape in order to carry a person??
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 13:36:06 GMT 1
Perhaps you dont mean 'thin' holsbols, but fit as opposed to fat? Do the horses have hollows either side of the withers, and is the spine prominent, or well muscled either side? These would all be factors I would consider.
Heather
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 13:52:08 GMT 1
yes it is fit... but the point im getting at tho, the horses arent in pain and they are living long and happy lives though they are not necessarily being ridden in the appropriate position! Therefore, how fundamental is the horses position when being ridden simply for hacking around... If they are happy, shown by their life span, and they are being ridden almost the whole way thru these long lives.
I agree that for certain disciplines that require agility in movement etc then yes this position is needed BUT its often IMO felt like people imply that ALL horses NEED to be ridden properly in an outline in order to prolong their ridden career and to be kinder to the horse. Im just questioning whether thats necessarily the case with my own personal experience of ridden horses...
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Post by antares on Jul 21, 2010 14:01:45 GMT 1
There is also the question of how hard horses are working here I think. As you rightly say trekking centre horses will work hard every day but this is probably through working a lot of hours rather than working intensely or at speed. Whereas a horse that is working more at trot and canter, doing more difficult moves won't work as many hours but may have a physically more demanding lifestyle than those in the trekking centre
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Post by heather on Jul 21, 2010 14:09:03 GMT 1
Good point, antares. Heather
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 14:25:59 GMT 1
There is also the question of how hard horses are working here I think. As you rightly say trekking centre horses will work hard every day but this is probably through working a lot of hours rather than working intensely or at speed. Whereas a horse that is working more at trot and canter, doing more difficult moves won't work as many hours but may have a physically more demanding lifestyle than those in the trekking centre that is very true... could you elaborate that into context of the position the horses are being ridden? the amount of work a horse does will relate to what the rider does and where they set their goals in the equine world. So how far should the positon of a horse be taken into account depending on the work the horse will do? Correct me if im wrong antares but it sounds like your point was because they are walking and not doing physically demading work then the position wont matter so much. So where does the line get drawn?? At what point should people be seeking out correcting the position of a horse? walk only doesnt matter, what about the occasional trot and canter? what about if someone did one hunt a year? this isnt a question about me and my situation... more questions to spark a bit of a debate to get opinions! I know exactly the point that i would stop and say my riding ability isnt enough for this and look for an instructor im just curious what the consensus is!!
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Jul 21, 2010 14:54:15 GMT 1
hols bols- interesting debate!
Whilst I would prefer my Stallion to work from behind I too have been in volved with what I will call trail riding horses. These horse had no schooling but were fit horses in hard work at all paces - maybe it is the hill work that makes them healthy and happy and not saggy - it sure as hell isn't the riders!!!!
ALso what is the longevity of the hunt horse when you see some of these riders the horses sure as hell aren't schooled to the level that I would prefer. Perhaps it is the mixed terrain and jumping that keeps the trail and the hunt horse healthy as the terrain itself is providing the schooling.
It will be interesting to see what other opinions are.
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