gypsydust
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jay + tangle xx
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Post by gypsydust on Jul 22, 2010 14:07:30 GMT 1
Ah, yes, Heather. I see what you mean. However the Arabian still has a higher head & tail carriage that other types might have. Comparing the 3 photos, yours, Arabmania's and the one of Anja is quite interesting and educational. This is my purebred Arab (Crabbet x Egyptian lines) working in a 'long and low' stretchy outline... www.flickr.com/photos/orangetails/4474291344/in/set-72157623604526381/# (sorry, I don't know how to post pics in posts - if anyone can do it properly for me I'd be grateful!) My contact is extremely light (it has to be, or she tenses and hollows) but there is a contact there that she is taking forwards, her bum is rounded and under her with her hocks stepping through and under, and a huge over-track. (Her ears are back because it's raining and she is a princess!) I don't think she's on the forehand? At liberty in the field, she will move with a higher head carriage - but still the same long powerful 'loose-ness' of the strides, a real motoring forwards. She has naturally good paces (my saddle fitter says she has never seen a horse more evenly muscled, and my farrier says her feet (unshod) are also naturally well-balanced with no need for trimming, she moves in such a way that she self-trims perfectly) - altho her tendency as an arab is more to the high head/tail carriage which can sometimes be quite hollow and tense. She has a wonderful natural passage! ETA the focus with my horse has been on relaxation, stretchy work like in the photo, because she is a complete drama queen, runs on adrenaline, and is very sharp/spooky. So we have worked on getting her to relax and swing thru in quite a low outline with a very soft contact. We've just started introducing lateral work to encourage more suppleness, and I guess in time we will move to a higher, more 'competition' outline. I often mostly hack in walk on the buckle, making sure she walks out properly and steps thru, but allowing her freedom of head and neck. Walk is the hardest pace to improve, and the easiest to ruin! so I don't like to 'fiddle' with it, particularly out hacking when I just want her to chill out away from the school. So elements of 'happy hacker' there lol! For me, the reason for aiming towards working in an outline/on the bit/whatever you want to call it is to enable the horse to carry the rider in as an effective a way as possible, to minimise any long-term damage. I do like to compete now and then (mostly just RC stuff, I do clinics and lessons and went to camp earlier in the year) - I like to see my horse as fit, supple and healthy as possible. Horses aren't designed to carry weight on top of their spine, it's all slung below in the framework of the ribs. And they naturally carry more weight on their forehand anyway - so as soon as you put a rider up there too, you 'overload' the front end even more. So I have lessons with a classical dressage trainer to help me ride and work my horse 'correctly', taking more weight on her back end and using her muscles in a way that supports my weight over her back without damaging it - like a hump-back bridge. It's then easier for my horse to work - and easier for me to ride as well! (I suppose the comparison in humans is that for lower back problems, my physio has given me lots of core stability exercises to strengthen my core muscles - this won't make my spine (which is slightly wonky) any stronger in itself, but a more supporting ring of muscles will provide it with better strength and stability)
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Post by donnalex on Jul 22, 2010 14:29:09 GMT 1
Just for you. And I thin it is a good example of long and low but lets see what the experts think
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Post by sarahlev on Jul 22, 2010 14:47:51 GMT 1
Holsbols, this is a really interesting thread, thanks for bringing it up. And thanks to everyone contributing of course. I would like to ride better and more classically and this is one of those "things you didn't know but were afraid to ask". I've read a few books on classical riding but still a debate can really help make things clear.
I had a few lessons earlier this year but gave up again. Once the instructor wanted me to get the horse (hers) on the bit purely by sponging on the reins. Well, I was sponging till my fingers were ready to fall off, to no effect, and she kept saying "it's easy". Every lesson after she put side reins on the horse. I felt this couldn't be right but didn't want to argue, being a bit of a wimp at such things. Anyway, when I start riding my horse again, I want to try to achieve some degree of working from behind but I'm wondering how easy (or even possible) this is when you work on your own. (I live on a farm with no other horses or riders nearby).
Keep posting everyone ....please!
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blueali
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water horse vs. land horse
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Post by blueali on Jul 22, 2010 16:07:20 GMT 1
This is indeed very interesting - its so cool to have real expert explanations!
The way I was taught to teach a horse to go in an outline (when I had dressage ambitions) is actually very similar to the sequence I use to warm Blue up for anything slightly athletic. I even do this at the big western shows which gets confused and disaprooving looks until we get to loping or perhaps a little travers.
After walking around for a while we trot (rising not western jog), she is slow and has the outline of an old plod, I think of this as just getting her hocks moving, they I apply my leg to ask for a bit more energy, then after a minute a bit more, Blue usually then starts to momentarily round her neck, then after a minute or two I feel her back end go to full power and she goes on the bit, usually a bit too low and occasionally behind the vertical. So then I can take a feel of her mouth on the end of the reins and she will bring her neck and head up but keep the power from behind. Then if I can I will think extend down a long side and allow her outline to stretch, that is the best feeling. The hard part is maintaining the outline through transitions, I still have to really ride for that. After a bit of hard work, I can offer her a longer rein and she will stretch long and low (I was always taught this is a good sign that they have worked correctly using the correct muscles), she prefers to do this at trot, and does exactly the same when freeschooled/lunged.
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blueali
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water horse vs. land horse
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Post by blueali on Jul 22, 2010 16:10:48 GMT 1
And Sarahlev - think of the outline as coming from the backend forward, and circles help, it is easier to ride 'inside leg to outside hand', and the horse naturally steps further under with its inside hind - I think this is why they help? Horse gets the idea?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2010 18:18:23 GMT 1
So how do you ride such a horse more 'up'? Examples please! I've started to focus on this as my horse has a horrendous bronc in him and gives no warning signs so I want him as off the forehand as possible so he's less able to go aerial without warning (there's motivation for you ) Rosie's advice to me was that they'll sruggle to step sideways with their front feet if all their weight is on the forehand, so she's given me loads of exercises to do to teach a babyish shoulder in, starting on a circle in hand, then progressing to ridden. Also, rein back and things like turn on the haunches - we don't do any of them with any great style but they do make him relax and carry himself better when going forwards!
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gypsydust
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jay + tangle xx
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Post by gypsydust on Jul 22, 2010 18:19:06 GMT 1
Sarah, amongst other things my instructor also says you have to 'push the ears forward over the nose' - ie you are not bringing the nose IN, but rather pushing/stretching the topline out - which comes from correctly moving thru from behind. The outline/contact starts right from the hind hooves, it's not just about where the head is - I like the phrase inside leg to outside hand as well. I'm not surprised you gave up with the instructor you were using!
I mostly school alone, and it is a lot harder/slower, especially as someone who came to riding as an adult, and I've only in the last 3-4 years started doing anything like 'dressage' - being a happy hacker plodder for my first few years of riding. I've now had about 14 lessons over 2 years - I love my lessons but sadly can only get to one every month or two. I warm up in a similar way to blueali, starting with a really loose rein/no contact and just allowing the horse to loosen up and get moving forwards, using circles and transitions. I do this in walk and trot, and then gradually start to take up a contact and maybe do a little bit of leg yield in walk before moving on to whatever I plan for the 'session'. I find with this slow and relaxed warm-up Jay will seek a contact of her own accord. I use stretching in walk and trot (similar to photo above - thanks donna!) as a reward when she has done well, as well as to cool down - Jay likes to have a stretch, so this is a useful way of rewarding her for trying something for me. As well as stretching, I'll also often have a mini-break where we walk on a long rein round the track outside our fields - this is about ten minutes and has a good steep hill so it's fantastic for a mental break as well as developing her hindquarters!
The feeling when it's 'right' is amazing - we're only getting it in snatches at the moment, but hey, it gives you something to strive for!!
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Post by heather on Jul 22, 2010 19:43:53 GMT 1
Sarahlev,
Is you instructor claiming to be 'classical'? We do, in the French school advocated 'asking' the horse to relax the jaw with sponging fingers, but never in a nagging way, in fact an onlooker should not be able to see you do anything!
Heather
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Post by sarahlev on Jul 23, 2010 14:05:31 GMT 1
not sure what the instructor's background is tbh.
I have EE book so knew about sponging to relax the jaw. But would I be right in thinking that to get to horse on the bit some weight/seat/leg aid is also required? Or should sponging be enough if the horse is moving foward properly? Or is sponging not necessarily relevant for getting the outline/on the bit? From what Blueali and Gypsydust have posted the horse seeks the contact himself.
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 23, 2010 14:26:32 GMT 1
very interesting point sarahlev... look forward to hearign the response!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2010 14:46:44 GMT 1
The answer depends on what you really mean by 'on the bit'? The concept of 'on the bit' in the sense that there is contact with the bit only exists in a world where the aids are used in opposition. In that case you would need to use a combination of aids.
If what you really mean is to have the horse collected, then there is no need to use anything other than a simple signal that asks the horse to elevate his head and neck and shift his weight rearwards.
The problem is that there are about 1001 different ways that a horse might avoid doing so when asked, so what you are really asking here is 'how do I train a horse to collection', which is quite a long story if you don't want to get physical about it and end up forcing the horse.
There is a great book by Philippe Karl (The Art of Riding) which I translated into English recently and is going to be published in the autumn. It basically answers your question in great detail (as well as being a great story about his time as an instructor and member of the Cadre Noir at the French national riding school in Saumur). His method is not the only way to do it but it is a good method and it works with all horses. You can get details of his book on my website if you click on the link below.
Derek
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blueali
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water horse vs. land horse
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Post by blueali on Jul 23, 2010 15:10:54 GMT 1
In my experience sponging only works if the horse is moving forward correctly and really all you want to do is feel the horses mouth on the end of the rein as if you are testing how soft the mouth is but without letting anyone else know you are doing it. Horses will lower their head to sponging without the rest of the outline and this is a very very annoying thing to retrain. Think about what you are doing - just moving the bit in the mouth, Blue knows this is a cue to lower her head so I can ask her to go on the bit at halt, but it isn't going to explain to the horse how you want it to carry itself.
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Post by heather on Jul 24, 2010 10:15:03 GMT 1
'Sponging' for want of a better word, is done first at the halt, blueali, at least in the French/Portuguese school. We want the horse to be able to soften and relax the jaw before he moves off. If you do not activate the hind legs afterwards, that is what causes the problem, blueali!
Have a look a the thread about getting a racehorse's head down- I posted some photos of me on an ex racehorse only two months off the track, in a demo for the BHS last year. You will see how the relaxation of the jaw works to enable, not prevent, the hindlegs to work!!
I dont think that training the horse into collection is coming into it at this stage, Derek, it is merely getting the horse to relax his jaw and lower his head, and stretch over his topline that holsbols would have been needing. Training true collection, as you say, is an immensely skilled area, and is not something that can be learned overnight!
Heather
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Post by heather on Jul 24, 2010 10:16:55 GMT 1
PS I also put some photos up on the thread 'Get me off the forehand' showing how the release of the lower jaw allows the rest of the horse to work. Try clenching your own jaw and see how it sets off a chain of muscle tension in your neck and chest, maybe even right through to your back. This is the same with the horse- tense jaw, tense rest of the horse.
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 26, 2010 9:16:56 GMT 1
thanks heather OOOO im really excited that my thread has been moved to the hall of fame!!! how sad am i lol
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