tess1
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Post by tess1 on Apr 12, 2009 12:36:15 GMT 1
On the basis of those quotes, Stybba, I LIKE Ben Hart's work!! I think, what he means in the second quote, is that with holding the click is enough of an aversive (ie, negative punishment) without adding positive punishment into the mix as well. And yes, with holding the click would lead to increased frustration. Building duration in behaviours is difficult, and it is a fine balance, my instinct here would be to break down the criteria even more, and work on each criteria separately.
Mandal - once you have identified an potential problem - you are far less likely to have to deal with it!! Give it a try .... you know you want to!!
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 12, 2009 12:57:53 GMT 1
Stybba, do you just teach the one thing ie. ground tying in a single session?
I have found with Star that it was just too boring for her to just stand still at the start, I used to get a huge amount of frustrated pawing, so I used to do other things as well..... walk, back up.... then stand for a bit..... maybe do a head lower. That was the only way I could keep her attention, keep the frustration to a minimum as we work on building the duration. Now she is happy to stand about during a session and just be clicked and treated for it, money for old rope as far as she's concerned, but it took a long time to get there.
I also use verbal no to let her know when I don't want something, I found witholding the click was too frustrating for her, she didn't seem to understand what was happening, the verbal thing lets her know..... because she will still poke the bumbag occasionally with her nose, even though it is never rewarded.
I think the biggest problem with -re is so few seem to understand the application of it to their horse. With some horses a hard stare can be -re, a movement of the hand towards with no contact, ranging through to gentle applied pressure. It depends on the horse, so care must be taken that you aren't punishing. It's always how the horse percieves it that's important, there's no subsititute for knowing your horse.
The other things is to be aware like Tess said that you aren't inadvertantly linking behaviour, sometimes it can be very easy to do it without realising what's happening. Although in Star I think the inimidation was just trying it out to see if it worked, when it didn't we went back to normal.
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tess1
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Post by tess1 on Apr 12, 2009 14:38:52 GMT 1
"money for old rope" - absolutely agree with Emma here - and also that getting them to that state is hard - espeically for the 'lively' ones!!
In dog training - we click and reinforce a default behaviour - in the absence of a verbal or visual cue we need the dogs to be able to just stand calmly and wait for the next cue - otherwise they are going to end up throwing all sorts of behaviours at us to get clicked - we spend as much time reinforcing the default 'stand' as we do all the other behaviours - and initially it has to be getting so many reinforcers that there is no time for the animal to even think about doing anything else - it is literally c/r, c/r, c/r, cue behaviour, c/r, c/r, cue behaviour c/r etc - then gradually we can introduce duration - but that is probably the hardest behaviour to teach.
Another thought - does tommy have duration in other behaviours yet - Alex's exercise of 'please don't interrupt...' for example - maybe it would be better to build duration in that, or head lowering or touching cones, or even some leading work, building up the amount of steps he takes between clicks (he might find it easier if he is allowed to move?) and then when he is confident that he is going to get clicked, and he is showing that he is developing a bit of patience, you can take duration back to ground tying?
I think sometimes it is hard for the animal to understand that we are building duration, not negatively punishing them, it's understandable that they show frustration if they think they are doing the right thing but are not getting their click.
great discussion - really got the brain cells working - now back to the onions (I suffer from the internet police as well)
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Post by stybba on Apr 12, 2009 17:34:23 GMT 1
[quote author=tess1 board=confidence thread=93503 post=1146892 time=1239543532we spend as much time reinforcing the default 'stand' as we do all the other behaviours - and initially it has to be getting so many reinforcers that there is no time for the animal to even think about doing anything else - it is literally c/r, c/r, c/r, cue behaviour, c/r, c/r, cue behaviour c/r etc - then gradually we can introduce duration - but that is probably the hardest behaviour to teach. [/quote] Thanks Tess, I think you have hit the nail on the head there. That is what I need to do. Off to try it now! Just thought actually, I might ask the mods to pin this thread and re-name it 'The Clicker Thread' or something. There is so much information here that i will need to re-visit time and again methinks. It will also make it easier for others to find. Hope you guys don't mind.
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tess1
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Posts: 228
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Post by tess1 on Apr 13, 2009 11:23:13 GMT 1
Hi Stybba
I do hope increasing the rate of reinforcement worked with your boy yesterday - would be interested to know how you got on.
And if the mods and other contributors are happy to rename the thread and have it pinned, I would be happy to see that happen.
I am scooting off later today, and may not (don't know yet) have internet access for about a week - so I'll be looking forward to updates when I get back!!! (But I am off for an intensive week of clicker training and learning theory, so I will be enjoying myself).
happy clickering Tess x
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Post by stybba on Apr 13, 2009 13:28:21 GMT 1
Thanks Tess, it worked really really well. We did some head lowering, and I gave him a purple bucket to use as a target. Every time his nose touched the bucket I c/r. We just kept doing this over and over and over and over, and when I had to step away and turn my back for about 15 seconds to change the hosepipe from one soaking bin to the other, he automatically just kept his nose on the bucket, even though I wasn't expecting him to! I think I had been trying to introduce too much duration too soon. Enjoy your course. A full write up is expected when you get back!
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tess1
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Posts: 228
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Post by tess1 on Apr 13, 2009 13:50:34 GMT 1
success - I love it - well done you and Tommy!!
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Post by stybba on Apr 14, 2009 18:57:18 GMT 1
More head lowering tonight. I dispensed with the purple bucket and used a much smaller target, which worked really well.
Then I realised that I seem to have inadvertently put this behaviour on cue. So I took away the target and every time I pointed to the ground Tommy lowered his head.
Again there was load and loads of c/t, and Tommy responded really well.
So I am going to carry on without the target, and using the cue, unless anyone can spot any glaring mistakes that I am making!
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